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Gun Laws And What The Second Amendment Intended

Memo Pad Politics

Gun Laws And What The Second Amendment Intended

gun on a guy's hip

By Michael Waldman, The Seattle Times

As school shootings erupt with sickening regularity, Americans once again are debating gun laws. Quickly talk turns to the Second Amendment.

But what does it mean? History offers some surprises: It turns out in each era, the meaning is set not by some pristine constitutional text, but by the push and pull, the rough and tumble of public debate and political activism. And gun rights have always coexisted with responsibility.

At 27 words long, the provision is the shortest sentence in the U.S. Constitution. It reads: “A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.”

Modern readers squint at its stray commas and confusing wording. The framers believed in freedom to punctuate.

It turns out that to the framers, the amendment principally focused on those “well regulated militias.” These militias were not like anything we know now: Every adult man (eventually, every white man) served through their entire lifetime. They were actually required to own a gun, and bring it from home.

Think of the minutemen at Lexington and Concord, who did battle with the British army. These squads of citizen soldiers were seen as a bulwark against tyranny. When the Constitution was being debated, many Americans feared the new central government could crush the 13 state militias. Hence, the Second Amendment. It protected an individual right — to fulfill the public responsibility of militia service.

What about today’s gun-rights debates? Surprisingly, there is not a single word about an individual right to a gun for self-defense in the notes from the Constitutional Convention; nor with scattered exceptions in the transcripts of the ratification debates in the states; nor on the floor of the U.S. House of Representatives as it marked up the Second Amendment, where every single speaker talked about the militia. James Madison’s original proposal even included a conscientious objector clause: “No person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in person.”

To be clear, there were plenty of guns in the founding era. Americans felt they had the right to protect themselves, especially in the home, a right passed down from England through common law. But there were plenty of gun laws, too. Boston made it illegal to keep a loaded gun in a home, due to safety concerns. Laws governed the location of guns and gunpowder storage. New York, Boston and all cities in Pennsylvania prohibited the firing of guns within city limits. States imposed curbs on gun ownership. People deemed dangerous were barred from owning weapons. Pennsylvania disarmed Tory sympathizers.

That balance continued throughout our history, even in the Wild West. A historic photo of Dodge City, Kansas, the legendary frontier town, shows a sign planted in the middle of its main street: “The Carrying of Fire Arms Strictly Prohibited.” Few thought the Constitution had much to say about it.

Through much of history, this balance evoked little controversy. Even the National Rifle Association embraced it. Today the NRA is known for harsh anti-government rhetoric, but it was started to train former Union soldiers in marksmanship. In the 1930s, the group testified for the first federal gun law. In 1968, its American Rifleman magazine told its readers the NRA “does not necessarily approve of everything that goes ‘Bang!'”

Of course, over the past three decades, the NRA shifted sharply. At the group’s 1977 annual meeting, still remembered as the “Revolt at Cincinnati,” moderate leaders were voted out and the organization was recast as a constitutional crusade.

Together with even more intense advocates, such as the Second Amendment Foundation, of Bellevue, Washington, they are quick to decry any gun laws as an assault on a core, sacred constitutional right. They waged a relentless constitutional campaign to change the way we see the amendment.

Remarkably, the first time the Supreme Court ruled that the Second Amendment recognizes an individual right to gun ownership was in 2008. The decision, District of Columbia v. Heller, rang loudly. But a close read shows that Justice Antonin Scalia and his colleagues make the familiar point that gun rights and responsibilities go together. The court said that, like all constitutional rights, there could be limits. “Nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms,” Scalia wrote.

That’s how judges have interpreted this constitutional right. Dozens of courts have examined gun laws since 2008. Overwhelmingly they have upheld them, despite the claims of gun-rights attorneys. Yes, there is an individual right to gun ownership — but with rights come responsibilities. Society, too, has a right to safety, and there is a compelling public interest in laws to keep guns out of the hands of dangerous people.

To be sure, the final scope of the constitutional provision has not been determined. The Supreme Court has not spoken again. It is infallible because it is final, as Justice Robert Jackson once wrote, not final because it is infallible. But the greatest controversy revolves around issues such as the rules for carrying a gun outside the home.

So what does the Second Amendment really mean? From the debate over the Constitution to today’s gun fights, the answer is really up to us, to the people. That answer changes over time. But one thing has remained surprisingly constant: Americans cherish freedom, but believe passionately that rights demand responsibilities. It’s hard to think of an area where that insight matters more than when it comes to ensuring that lethal weapons do not fall into the wrong hands.

Michael Waldman is the president of the Brennan Center for Justice at New York University School of Law and the author of The Second Amendment: A Biography. He wrote this for the Seattle Times.

Photo: Paul Weaver via Flickr

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  1. CPAinNewYork July 14, 2014

    Mr. Waldman’s article is well written and puts forth a reasonable standard for the possession of guns by the citizenry.

    The problem is that the gun lobby is not interested in reason. The gun lobby represents the gun makers and sellers and their interest extends no further than the “freedom” to sell guns. To maintain that “freedom” the gun industry stands ready to lavishly bribe lawgivers at all levels.

    1. brucelanc July 15, 2014

      You commies are off your rockers. Absolutely nuttier than squirrel dung. Bonkers. Out of your bleeding minds. Your delusions have taken over. Get help.

      1. Michael Ross July 15, 2014

        And once again, the tea-bagger cannot explain WHY he believes this.

        We have actual facts on our side, tea-bagger. More than that, we’ve got the actual Constitution. All you’ve got to support your argument is an incredibly short temper.

        1. jointerjohn July 15, 2014

          Arriving at the simplistic conclusion that everything he likes is “god given”, and therefore not debatable, is a common path for those who cannot tolerate the opinions of others, feel insecure in their positions, and yet lack the courage and intellect to make their case. It is truly amazing how many different versions of god there are, and magically each one agrees with and supports the exact positions of the group of humans who promote him. What a coincidence!

      2. Chalrley Walker July 15, 2014

        Ahoy Brucie Bonkers,
        Either learn to read or learn to avoid exposure by voicing irrational thoughts.
        The Second Amendment either means ” “A well regulated militia,…” or according to your mentally impaired wishful thinking it means every nutcase can have a gun to shoot any innocent child that comes across his delusional path.
        More than a hundred school house and workplace mass shootings annually — while civilized countries have NONE!!!
        In my youth, we all carried rifles and shotguns to protect the herds and flocks from coyotes and other varmints and for pure “MEAT HUNTING.”
        No sport about either.
        Protect our animals from predators and put meat on the table.
        The inner city drug gangs are carrying semi-automatic military style weapons, and automatic military style weapons for one purpose — TO KILL PEOPLE.
        Leave you address — we’ll ask them to call and explain their disregard for you right to life!

        1. stcroixcarp July 15, 2014

          Not only “inner city drug gangs” (black and brown people) are carrying semi-automatic military style weapons for one purpose–TO KILL PEOPLE. White supremicists, white neo-nazis, white survivalist, white sovereign nation folks, domestic abusers, White school killers, White movie theater killers, all carry military type weapons. This is not just and “inner -city black thing”.

      3. mah101 July 15, 2014

        Its embarrassing to see such a flagrant display of deep insecurity. Sad little man.

        1. joe schmo July 15, 2014

          If anything, you should be the insecure ones….. Not us.

          1. mah101 July 15, 2014

            Please, Joe, do explain. And by the way, who is the collective “you” and “us”? I thought this country was filled with “we, the people”.

          2. joe schmo July 16, 2014

            At the moment, no such thing. I mean ‘we.’ Big divide. We are not the followers. We question authority.

            You mean to tell me you don’t know anything about the ‘collective.’ You all think you have such ginormous brains. You figure it out.

          3. mah101 July 16, 2014

            Foolish little man. You are like someone who can only see in black and white screaming at the “foolishness” of those who are trying to explain color.

            Moving on, nothing more to see here.

          4. BillP July 16, 2014

            mah101 this is what schmo always does, he claims he is the free thinker and that Liberals/Democrats are sheeple following an ideology blindly.

          5. joe schmo July 16, 2014

            Mahahaha…..If you only knew….LOLOLOL

          6. Michael Ross July 15, 2014

            Said the little boy who is too insecure to use his real name or face, who literally does nothing but troll around the internet looking for liberals to throw a tantrum at, and who is literally incapable of responding to anything any way, except with shallow diversions.

          7. joe schmo July 16, 2014

            Awww…..you have no clue……LOL Nah, I have included many a fact in my posts.

            Why do you think I am screaming or having a tantrum? I’m not. Yes, I like to make you aware and throw politics in your face because you constantly do that to us. But I don’t think you are as well informed. Maybe some of you are. For example, our neighbor who is a liberal had no clue about what is going on at the border. None. He just started attacking us politically. What were we supposed to do just stand there and take it. Nope, he was uninformed.

            We are getting reallllly sick of it. So we are beginning to stand up for ourselves. As the result of constant attacks, I am here to defend our side. Sorry if you don’t like it. You do it all the time. Still a free country until now…..

          8. Michael Ross July 16, 2014

            Conspiracy theories recycled from Larry Pratt don’t count as facts, tea-bagger, and insisting that you have been including facts doesn’t magically cause them to appear in your prior posts.

            You only got one thing right in this post: You and your ilk are sick.

            You are, however, not here to defend your side. For you to defend your side, you would have to actually have a side to be defended.

            What you have instead is a lot of pent up angst and hostility at the world around you and a willingness to say anything, no matter how blatantly fraudulent or irresponsible it may be, as long as you feel it gives you some kind of an edge.

            You are not standing up for yourself. All you’re doing is trolling.

            Now shut up and go tell Vladimir Putin how much you love him.

          9. joe schmo July 16, 2014

            We’re sick! No, it is definitely you and your idiots. You want to see this country split into a million shreds. Believe me it will. A large portion of that blame goes to your corrupt side.

            Additionally, you add no facts whatsoever. Never have, never will. That tells me right there that you are not well read and just hanging onto your empty Liberal views just because it is ‘en vogue.’ Your certainly are part of the ‘Collective.’

            Oh, I’m pissed alright, just as pissed as you would be if the shoe was on the other foot. In fact, I believe you people would be violent. Something I have way too much integrity and class for. I just shoot off at the mouth.

            Trolling is such a stupid term. It means absolutely nothing. I am sticking up for my side and I see many others doing the same.

            Youngster, you will reap what you sow and you have absolutely no clue what you are asking for. You will be poorer than your wildest dreams and the government man will own your soul, then perhaps, one day, you will look back and remember what I said. I really don’t give a shit what you think about that. It will be YOUR problem because by then I will be long gone….

            Putin aside, he is at least more national than communist. We are the reverse thanks to your Man. He has no problem taking care of business.

          10. Michael Ross July 17, 2014

            “Split into a million shreds?” Hey Joe, remind me: When was the last time a Democrat responded to a lost election by threatening to secede and/or overthrow the government?

            That’s right. The answer is: Never in your lifetime. Now how often do conservatives threaten to secede and/or overthrow the government? About once a week.

            And unlike you, I can actually NAME some high-profile conservatives in politics or media who have actively called for a secession and/or violent upheaval. Rick Perry, Ted Cruz, Sarah Palin, Ted Yoho, Steve Stockman, Allen West, Larry Pratt, Joseph Farah, Larry Klayman, Paul Vallely, Harry Riley, Selwyn Duke, Frank Turek, Richard Mack, Erik Rush, Jim Garrow, Rick Joyner, Christopher Monckton, Joshua Black, Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, Pat Robertson, Paul Cameron, Alex Jones, Pete Santilli, Ted Baehr, Alan Keyes, Pamela Geller, Jerry Boykin, Rick Wiles, William Gheen, Scott Lively, Lee Bright, Pat Buchanan, Bryan Fischer, Phil Elmore, Bernard McGuirk, Ted Nugent, Austin Ruse, Steve Deace, Keith Fournier — the list goes on tea-bagger. All of these people and more have actively called for a secession from the United States, a military overthrow of the U.S. government, or for Barack Obama and any/all of his supporters to be murdered.

            Enough with the projection, tea-bagger. Reality is uncompromising and will never allow you to pretend that you and your ilk are actively doing all the things you now wish you could accuse democrats of having done.

          11. joe schmo July 18, 2014

            Most likely you are a youngster and you have not enjoyed the freedoms and patriotism I have enjoyed in my lifetime. You never will because you have no clue what that is like. Our public schools have most likely filled your brain with secular junk. You have become part of the ‘collective’ of narrow-minded decadent liberals. You verge on a thin line between what you think is American and what is more closely linked to Karl Marx’s ideology.

            There is a reason we threaten to secede. This is NOT the America where freedom flows freely, it is no longer the country that manufactures, it is no longer a country respected by the world (it always was), it no longer is a country proud of its heritage, it is no longer a country of tolerance andI that includes the Conservative viewpoint, There was always a balance.

            Our country was meant to work both ways. It had checks and balances. It no longer does. What your side has initiated is: no more use of natural resources, no smoking (but pots OK), no more immigration laws(letting in all the dummies), no agriculture(sent south and run by Hispanics), no innovation (getting more outsourced everyday and many come over here to learn and take their knowledge home), no religion (anti-Christian. Was our mainstay in this country) , no military or a weak one at that(Obama has no respect, he wants the UN to come in and take over), no respect for those who do not believe in the gay and lesbian movement(I am not anti-gay but it offends some people leave them alone about it), no wealth(let’s spread the wealth. this is a communist approach), no guns (let’s disarm the citizens so that the collective can take over) and the list goes on and on. Yes this works for you but what about us. Yes we have made progress but only in one direction, yours. It is a fractured society that weighs too heavy on the left. Where’s the fairness, the Laissez faire? Wasn’t meant to be this way and the Founders would be rolling over.

            You wanted to know why we feel the way we do. The above is why we want to secede and it may just happen. If you really want this country to stay together, your side needs to stop having such a tight rein on America. Obama is dividing us ON PURPOSE. Those ‘Tea-baggers’ you so hate are the ones trying to hold onto American Culture which you don’t seem to understand. You know, mom, pop and apple pie. But I guess you don’t understand that because you have been programmed by the collective and can no longer think for yourself. Good luck into the future because my America is gone thanks to the Progressives, RINO’s and people like you. I’d be afraid of losing this country by a split, very afraid.

            There was a Conservative that posted the other day a quote about two separate sides. He stated that it won’t be long until there is, literally, a divide. He was so right. Well get ready because if things don’t change, we are in for a very very bumpy ride. It’s like a bad marriage. There is no longer a give and take. Good luck.

          12. Michael Ross July 19, 2014

            I’m in my thirties, and very familiar with the concept of freedom. I also, contrary to your reality-challenged insistence, attended public schools for only three years.

            The last three years, to be precise. Before that, my parents had me enrolled in Catholic schools where they tried to indoctrinate me into believing in intelligent design, gay aversion therapy, and all the other crap that you and your ilk all swear by.

            Needless to say, their indoctrination didn’t work.

            It didn’t because I noticed something: The liberal scholars and scientists had absolutely no problem with me hearing the conservative arguments, because they had seen all of the facts, were confident that they had come to the right conclusions, and trusted us to be able to look at the evidence for ourselves.

            But you? You pricks scream “indoctrination!” if someone even mentions the name of a book that wasn’t promoted by Mike Huckabee. But it is, once again, projection; is once again you and your ilk accusing your opponents of the very thing you are trying to do. You people are terrified of new ideas, hence the only way you expect to create a new generation of tea-baggers is by “homeschooling” them in complete isolation.

            I find it funny, by the way, that just one post after you claimed you don’t want to see America split and that you are a first-gen American, you start spouting off that your wanting to split America is justified and that it’s because you want to defend America’s heritage (something that, as the descendant of immigrants, you are not a part of).

            This is what I was talking about Joe. You’re such a compulsive liar that you can’t even keep your latest batch of bullshit consistent with the batch of bullshit that came right before it.

            The closest you’ve come yet to speaking an ounce of truth is that there is a divide. What you’re trying to ignore, of course, is that it’s you and your ilk who are creating it. You and your tea-bagger ilk are more than eager to turn on anyone who even slightly differs from you in opinion (Eric Cantor anyone?), to completely disavow your old ideals if it turns out the Democrats happen to agree with you (Bowe Bergdahl anyone?), or to go to great lengths to severely punish anyone for whom there might be even a slight possibility of them supporting any political party other than your own (Bridgegate anyone?).

            When it comes to dividing the country, it is you and your ilk who have been more than eager to declare one small piece of America “the real America,” to declare one even smaller percentage of the populace “real Americans,” and to declare that Al-Qaeda is more than welcome to bomb the shit out of the rest of America at their leisure.

            You’re a coward, a brat, and a whore, Joe. You are shit incarnate — a living embodiment of everything wrong in America: Selfish, stupid, hateful, anti-intellectual, paranoid, cowardly, narcissistic, bigoted, two-faced, fraudulent, and worst of all, absolutely proud of it.

            There isn’t a pit in Hell deep enough for the likes of you.

          13. joe schmo July 19, 2014

            30’s that’s nothing. I had more freedom than you as a young adult. You have no idea what it’s like to be able to get a job and drive at 16, move out of your parents house at 18. Get your own place at 18. Pay less for college. Buy a car at 18 and not have astronomical payments. Buy a house at a young age. Get a job easily without having to be interviewed umpteen times. Start a business and not have it outsourced. Shoot for the moon. Unless you have scads of money provided by Mommy and Daddy, you really don’t know what it is like to have it easier and realize what real freedom is all about.

            So you rebelled against your parents. Well, you most likely will continue to do that. I for one believe they were only trying to give you a better life. THEY ACTUALLY CARED. You must be very angry inside with them. Feel bad for them. Hey it’s still a free country, you can think what you want. I have heard that often that Catholics tend to try to pound their belief system into their kids and they rebel. Too bad. I’m not Catholic but I admire the religion. Everything has its faults even religion. College did a really good job indoctrinating you with their ‘uber’ liberal ideology. You are the prime example of that. Where will you be at the end of all this. Hmmmmm…..LOL Good luck!

            Regarding the immigrant comment. Remember I said my father and mother escaped Communism… You think that liberalism affords you all the freedom you want. I beg to differ. Once Marx’s agenda is proposed in this country more and more, you will have an eye opening experience because all those Liberals you idle worship and think highly of will turn the tables on you. You will be more surppressed than I will ever have been. You already are. Besides countries split all the time. Look at India. Many states are already talking about parting ways. So no biggy.

            Yes, heritage. One that is changing rapidly for the worse. I know what it is truly like to be a proud and patriotic American. I doubt you have those feelings. It has been learned out of you. Oh by the way, do you even know who the first President of the US was or who John Henry was? Why do you suppose your parents were trying to protect you?

            So you ADMIT there is a divide. Not entirely caused by our side by the way. Conservatives tend to be law-abiders. Liberals are a bit more violent in their belief system. We’re slowly coming around though because we’re tired of being bullied and backed into the corner. Not sure if you really want us mad though.

            You don’t have a clue about the Tea-baggars. You just assume we are all the same. There are Constitutionalists, Nationalists, Independents and Moderates. We are not all in the same pot, however; we will still vote together. The Tea-bagger label comes from your media. You see your side is terrified of what will happen if we again become patriotic, proud, achieving Americans. Can’t have that can we?

            You know, everything is misconstrued and F’d Up in your camp. Good is bad, bad is good, criminals are innocent and innocents are criminals. Cops are pigs, and criminals are honored. Citizens are the scourge of the earth and Illegals are poor innocent victims who deserve more than any citizen ever had. No matter what the cost. Problem is we have become a nation of pansies. Catering to anti-law, flower power, pig hating, anti-Christian atheistic, gay pride, coexisting beaurucrats thanks to people like you. ALL FALSE projections. It can’t last because it is too decadent. Humans do have to live by principled laws of nature. I can assure you of that. You may see the change in your lifetime. Honestly, you were born into the wrong era. I think that Bill Ayers violent streak would have suited you to a tea.

            You can call me all the names you want. Doesn’t change a thing. I just know I enjoyed more freedom than you will ever know and that is really sad. The fact that you deny the very thing that made us a great nation proves to me that all is almost lost. But again, not my problem because you will inherit this mess for decades to come. Maybe like you say I am too negative, but I also know how different and good it can be. You don’t and that’s because I am older and wiser than you.

          14. Michael Ross July 24, 2014

            Once again, you don’t know jack shit about me.

            Now you’re accusing me of rebelling against my parents. But guess what shithead? I still live with one of them (the other one is a hardcore Republican who treated his wife like a car and traded her in for a newer model).

            And before you say it, I don’t live with her because I have to. Even getting paid below the minimum wage, my finances are still responsible enough that I damn well could live by myself if I wanted to.

            I live with her because, unlike you and your ilk, I actually COULD give a shit about other human beings besides myself.

            Once again, whore, your argument completely hinges on prejudices that have no basis in reality. You are still trying to debate things that literally do not exist.

            By the way, what you call freedom, I call narcissistic overindulgent irresponsibility.

            Unfortunately for you, so blinded were you by your raging orgasm for mindless self-indulgence that you neglected to take into account the fact that it’s because you and your ilk were trying to live ridiculously beyond your means that the rest of us must now do without. When Ronald Reagan and the two Bushes promised a great big tax cut, you and your ilk bought into it in the shallow hopes that you would be the beneficiaries.

            It was on this very website that you now exist for no purpose except to troll that this was laid out in plain English: The true American freedom you claim to love (but we already know you actually secretly despise) was built on high taxes for the rich. Simply put, high taxes on the rich meant the rich kept their money invested in their companies. That inevitably meant better pay for the workers, which in turn meant a greater ability of the average American to live the American dream.

            Then Reagan, Bush, W. Bush, and all the other “freedom-loving American” pimps and con artists you so giddily whore yourself out to came into power and granted them all hefty tax cuts, and the rich decided to celebrate by slashing wages, giving themselves huge bonuses and running off to the Caymans to open new bank accounts.

            That American freedom you claim to love is dead by your hand, tea-bagger. But hardly surprising, given that we already know damn well that your love letters to freedom were insincere to begin with.

            All this time, you have failed miserably to contain your raging boner for fascism, tea-bagger. At the end of the day, everything you have said and done heavily implies an intense hatred of freedom, a hatred of equality, a hatred of the United States and the American people, and a genuine desire to recreate the tyranny of the Soviet Union here in America.

            Away with you, traitor. Go back to Russia and tell Vladimir Putin how much you love him to his face.

          15. joe schmo July 25, 2014

            Hmmmm…..I get you better than you think.

            I feel really sorry for you. Now I see why you hate Conservatives so much. Your Dad…and with good reason. Unfortunately, he seems to be a successful man. Many men in his position end up having affairs and falling for the youngster. I think men in that position should not marry until they reach an age where a woman is at least 10 years younger. Between you and me, you don’t really respect him, as a result, you hate Conservatives. Not a really viable reason to hate a group but nonetheless. Like a gang member looking for a family, you turned to the Liberal institution you attended for splice and you found it. Unfortunately, they are not always right. I had the fore thought to look beyond the brainwashing.

            In my case, my parents have been married 50 years and I have been married over 30 wonderful years. Unfortunately that is rare nowadays and I believe divorce really hurts the children no matter what the age. My spouses father had an affair after 35 years of marriage. It is never easy.

            I am also sorry that you have to live with your Mom. In our generation we were out of the house between the age of 17-20. We couldn’t stand the rules so we moved out. However, jobs, cars, condos, apartments, food, etc… were cheaper and easier to attain. You have no clue. You poor kids nowadays really don’t know what real freedom is all about. I have worked with many young men around your age and a bit younger. They were my students and, as much as you hate me, they loved and respected me as I did them. Many have gone on to graduate and become successful young men who I am very proud of. Of course, they were all addicted to their video games, iphones, smart phones……but it was also part of what they were learning.

            I realize that it is extremely hard to get good full time jobs but you can thank your Man for that one because of his hate for business and the American Dream. He hates Capitalism. Instead of being at home ranting at me….what about getting out into the community and why not get involved in your own political party first hand. Where is you ambition and drive to make something out of your life? I have had a chronic disease most of my life and in between being down, I went to school, got my masters, and worked until I again had to work on my health. Your health is everything. Remember that. Everything else is small potatoes.

            Now I understand that your hate is not exactly directed at me rather, it is directed at the very person who hurt you. ’Narcissistic overindulgent,’ nope, think that is something I would pin on your side. Conservatives are certainly not irresponsible. When you look at the unorganization of our Government of late, Obamacare for example, now that is irresponsible.

            We have the highest corporate/business taxes and regulations in the world. This causes our Companies to leave the country and it turns away foreign countries that would otherwise like to set up shop in our country. Don’t you see that deterrent?

            This is why we have issues:

            “But today as manufacturing moves abroad, we have fewer and fewer of the old-school capitalist rich, and the middle class is shrinking as the wealth to support it is eroding away.

            And why is this happening?

            Because of Democrat party attacks on wealth-creating, capitalist private business through excessive taxes, regulation, lawsuits, enviro restrictions and labor union agitation.”


            “Indeed, after wealth is created through hard work the socialists at every level set up shop. So, for instance, the moment that a capitalist company becomes economically successful, you will see the unions moving in to get as much of that wealth as possible. But those unions never take any of the risk involved or put in the long hours to build that company up.

            Or once a company is successful you will find the government taxing it relentlessly; or the Democrat trial lawyers seeking any grounds for a lawsuit. Because liberals are in love with money more than any capitalist ever was.”

            This is why we have outsourcing so don’t entirely blame the Corps.

            “Simply put, high taxes on the rich meant the rich kept their money invested in their companies. That inevitably meant better pay for the workers, which in turn meant a greater ability of the average American to live the American dream.

            Then Reagan, Bush, W. Bush, and all the other “freedom-loving American” pimps and con artists you so giddily whore yourself out to came into power and granted them all hefty tax cuts, and the rich decided to celebrate by slashing wages, giving themselves huge bonuses and running off to the Caymans to open new bank accounts.”

            These are assumptions.

            By the way, I would really like to know from your perspective what you consider to be American exceptionalism? Unsuppressed freedom? All you do is rant and bash. In case you haven’t noticed, most of the presidents we have had with the exception of Reagan (Dude you have no clue about him, you were a mere babe), weren’t the best. I don’t consider Bush 2 because he wasn’t really a true Conservative.

            I am sorry you feel the way you do about Conservatives. Please don’t compare us to your Dad, we truly have our hearts in the right place. You are not as old as I am, you have not enjoyed the freedoms I have. You don’t understand Fascism or Communism, even though Communism is knocking at our door. You only know when the wall came down. I have lived it. In that respect I know more than you in many ways. Politically and in life. I wish the best for you. I hope that the economy turns around so that when you get to be my age you will have better middle years than we have had. We all know, whether we are democrats or republicans that this is truly a mess. Best of luck.

          16. Michael Ross July 25, 2014

            What a surprise: You’re dead wrong about me again. I’m fine with my dad — I just don’t live with him.

            You see, there are two key differences between Republicans like my father and Republicans like you:

            1) My father didn’t know he was supporting tyrants, thieves and hypocrites.
            2) My father had a breaking point.

            It’s because of the greedy bastards like Bush and Cheney who deliberately raped and pillaged this country, and the subhuman vermin like you who called me a traitor for not allowing them to do so, that I hate Republicans. Unlike my father, you and your ilk knew damn well what you were supporting but continue to do so anyway.

            You and your ilk swore your allegiance to party and money over country and yet you have the gall to call us traitors for not having done the same. You claim to love freedom and liberty while at the same time call for “Voter I.D.,” “second amendment remedies” and other blatant code words for murder and tyranny. And you bash Obama for not being tough on Putin, a man that you openly, and simultaneously, venerate as if you thought he was the second coming of Christ.

            You, Joe Shmo, and all of the other greedy, lying, hypocritical, cowardly, bigoted, narcissistic, tyrannical, living sacks of excrement clumsily disguised as human beings, are the reason I hate Republicans.

            My father was misguided. You, on the other hand, are downright evil.

          17. joe schmo July 27, 2014

            Dude, you seriously need to get a GOOD job.

            Obama tough on Putin….LOLOLOLOL Wow, that’s a good one. Open your eyes, child. You have no clue. Your father does….

          18. Michael Ross July 27, 2014

            I knew this would happen sooner or later. Every single one of you tea-bagger whores has done it sooner or later, and now you’ve done it: You’ve attempted to lie about what I said, even though the evidence that you are lying is literally right on the exact same webpage as your lies.

            I never said Obama was tough on Putin. I said you tea-bagger whores were attacking him for not being tough on Putin.

            You also pegged my father wrong. Because, as I said, he had a breaking point. He was a Republican in the 80s, but he and I have now done plenty of father/son bonding over a shared hatred for all the anti-American subhuman shit like you that continues to fly the G.O.P. flag.

            You’re not just a lying whore Joe, you’re such a lying whore that you actually think it is within your capacity to lie to me about what I wrote in the exact same place than I wrote it.

            I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again: Get your ass back to Russia.

          19. Michael Ross July 27, 2014

            You’ve done it Joe. Every tea-bagger I’ve argued with has done it sooner or later, and now you’ve done it: You attempted to lie about what I wrote, even though the evidence that you are lying is literally right on the same page you are posting your lies to.

            I never said Obama was tough on Putin. I said you and your ilk were attacking him for NOT being tough on Putin.

            You also (deliberately, I suspect) pegged my father wrong. As I said, he had a breaking point. He and I now bond over our shared disgust with the liars, thieves and wannabe tyrants that you continue to sell out to today.

            You are not just a liar, you are such a compulsive liar that you felt the need to lie about what I wrote in the exact same place that I wrote it.

            That’s it Joe. You’re done. If you had even a smidgen of credibility left at all to begin with, it is dead now.

          20. joe schmo July 29, 2014

            Like I said before you have waaayyyy too much time on your hands. You need to get a good job, start a business (not sure what your field of study was), move out of mommies house and get a life. I’ve already had mine. You are too young to be here cussing at me.

            I didn’t lie about what you wrote. You are a twister. Glad your Dad and you are now pals, but I still detect an air of resentment for him on pryer posts. Whatever.

            Is that your favorite word, ‘lie.’ What’s the matter cat got your tongue or are you stuttering. I never lie you just misinterpret. Your vocabulary is certainly not very fluent.

            Again, I ask you:

            I would really like to know from your perspective what you consider to be American exceptionalism? Unsuppressed freedom? What are the solutions to our problems?

            I already know the answer. You can’t answer these questions because you are too lazy. You let the government man do the work for you.

            YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT IT IS LIKE TO HAVE FREEDOM. Good luck paying that debt off that you will inherit mostly incurred by your Man. Good luck to living the good life. Unless it changes you will remain in mommies basement in somewhere USA having a mediocre future contemplating a suppressed life.

          21. Michael Ross July 29, 2014

            As expected, the only way you know to respond to having been blatantly caught lying is to continue to lie your ass off some more. You said, and I’m quoting you exactly: “Obama tough on Putin….LOLOLOLOL Wow, that’s a good one,” even though NOBODY had ever made such a claim (you pulled that out of the same thing you have your head firmly wedged up inside).

            And once again, you’ve deliberately pegged me wrong again. You’re calling me “too lazy” literally on the exact same day that I just collected six hours of overtime.

            I don’t know why I’m telling you this since you’re just going to lie your ass off about what I said again, but since you asked, here goes:

            American exceptionalism is something we should strive for, not something we are born with by default. Once upon a time (before you “libertarian” thieves and frauds spread your filth everywhere), America was the world leader in manufacturing, science, and culture. We were the country that gave equal rights to blacks and to women, that decisively won two world wars, that put a man on the moon, and that laid the groundwork for the internet that enables you to sit at home all day lying your worthless ass off.

            Of course, that was all before you and your ilk got your filthy “libertarian” hands all over America. Now, as a result of your idiot Reaganomics, the U.S. can’t even deliver the mail on weekends. Under the reign of the people you called me a traitor for not bending over for, the only things the U.S. is #1 in anymore are gun ownership and obesity.

            Unsuppressed freedom is anarchy, and by extension, not something I would want to be proud of supporting (though I know how much you love Putin, ergo I know your expressed love of freedom is as phony as everything else you’ve written).

            Somewhere down the line you have to square the freedom to own as many
            guns as you want with the freedom to leave your house without fear of
            getting shot. Me personally, I lean in favor of the latter.

            And on that “free market” you and your ilk love so much, I refer you to Bill Maher to explain why it’s not just destructive, but how big business is the true big government that you and your ilk love to pretend you are opposed to:

            The first, and most immediate solution to the problem, would be to repeal all of the tax cuts your Tea Party pimps gave just to themselves. The second would be to invest all of the money that used to go to Cayman bank accounts into modernizing and maintaining all of our infrastructure and training Americans for the jobs doing so.nAnd finally, we stop trusting the “free” market not to put the screws to us and give the government the capacity to determine whether or not it would be cheaper and/or more efficient to just open their own damn company and the capacity to do so if that turns out to be the case.

            Or, if nothing else, every time someone says government can’t do anything right, we no longer trust them to be able to work effectively for the government. All of the problems in this country, I place firmly on you and your ilk for your invested interest in making sure that remains to be the case.

          22. joe schmo July 29, 2014

            Kid, you really need to get a GOOD job. You have way too much time on your hand. Better yet, make better use of yourself by contributing your time to a soup kitchen. See how the poor really live.

            Try working 24/7 for a change with no time off. That’s how many people in my generation made it in life. Specifically if they have a business.

            Liberitarian – yah right! Nope. Now you don’t know me at all.

            You do not know what it takes to be an American:

            “If more Americans pondered this simple question they would have a more clear understanding of why those brave men who came before us risked
            their blood, treasure and sacred honor to create the greatest nation on Earth.

            The Founding Fathers were a revolutionary group, diverse in their professions and yet unified in their goal: American liberty.

            They understood that the citizens should have a say in their government and that the government only derives its legitimate power from the
            consent of the governed.

            Thus begun a radical shift in political thought. Individuals are not given rights by a government or king, the power of that government or king must be justly derived from the consent of the governed.

            Rights would no longer be given to the people by the government, the government would be given limited rights from the people.

            America would be a land of freedom and opportunity, with minimal government intrusion, a limited central government that would simply
            protect the people and maintain a safeenvironment for them to pursue
            happiness in anyway they saw fit.

            The Founding Fathers would weep if they saw how destructive the government of the nation they risked everything to create had become to
            the liberty of the people.

            The term “Bill of Rights” is actually quite misleading. The Bill of Rights is a collection of amendments to the Constitution that actually
            sets clear limits on what the Federal Government is allowed to do. It is more a bill of limitations on government then a bill of rights for the citizens.

            The Founding Fathers believed so much in the people that they allowed them the freedom to do virtually anything they wanted as long as they
            did not harm one another. This is individual liberty.

            Even our sacred rights to speak freely, worship the way we see fit, own firearms and be secure in the ownership of our private property are envied around the world today.

            Governments try to fix problems by taking little bits of our liberty piece by piece and they always wind up creating more unforeseen problems
            which require new government solutions.

            If there is a rise in gun crime, the solution is to limit the rights of the people to own guns. Never mind that less than 1% of all legally purchased handguns will ever be used in a crime, just make all citizens suffer for a tiny minority.

            This is the current trend of our government in all aspects of our freedoms.”


          23. Michael Ross July 30, 2014

            24/7? You do realize that leaves you absolutely no time for sleep and that, if attempted, you would be dead by the end of the week, right?

            See, this is the problem with being a pathological liar Joe. Now you’re trying to claim something that has absolutely zero basis in reality.

            To your credit, however, you did actually say something true, although not nearly in the way you intended:

            Yes, it is my future at stake. It is, in fact, the entire country’s future at stake. And that is why I am absolutely committed, with every fiber of my being, to SENDING EVERY LAST FUCKING ONE OF YOU EVIL TEA-BAGGER IMPS BACK INTO THE PITS OF HELL FROM WHICH YOU SPAWNED.

          24. joe schmo July 30, 2014

            Yup, that’s the way America used to be. That’s how you got somewhere in life. With a little luck and hard work that is how a person used to become a millionaire. The individuals in my immediate family have always been hard workers. My brother goes into work when he doesn’t have to. He makes 6 figures and he is doing extremely well. My father was the same and he is extremely well off as a retired man. No they didn’t have businesses but worked for companies that are American based and put in an extra effort. They are and were very well liked because they knew their stuff, worked hard, knew how to save money and invest money and promoted good customer service in their jobs.
            When I was in grad school, I worked 2 jobs and worked on projects 7 days a week. I went to bed sometimes between 12 or 3 a.m. My field is in computers…..

            I feel you spend too much wasted time debunking me. My reason is illness. Since I have been ill I have had more time to become political. What’s your excuse? You are way to young to be hanging out with older adults online. That is what most of us are.

            Go ahead my friend. Send us packing because your wish will be fulfilled. You are helping to destroy the very people who truly believe in freedom. Your side does not. LOL, you have no clue about communism and suppression. Makes me wonder about the naivete of young people today. YOU ARE SO BRAINWASHED. One day YOU WILL wake up and hopefully it is not to late for you. Living at home with Mommie or Daddy would have been frowned upon in my generation… Time to get out and explore the world and make some changes in your life. Just a word from the wise.

          25. Michael Ross July 30, 2014

            Illness USED to be my excuse. Know what I did about it? I got a job that allowed me to work from home.

            But it doesn’t matter what you claim, because we’ve already established that you are a compulsive liar, so much so that you expected me to believe things that were literally not possible within the realm of reality.

            I have no reason to believe any of your relatives make six figures at their jobs, or that you worked two jobs OR went to grad school, because you’ve already tried to convince me that it’s possible to work 24/7 without any time for sleep.

            More likely than not you are some inbred home schooled Georgia trust fund baby who thinks crawling out of bed in the morning counts as work and whose interest in politics likely stems no further than being butt-hurt over the fact that the South lost the war.

            You have zero credibility Joe. Everything you say is suspect; you have made claims that quite literally have no basis in reality.

            I’m working full time. You’re not.
            I’m living within my means. You’re not.
            I’m talking about things as they actually are. You’re not.

            So now it’s time for you to fuck off Joe. From now on, we, the adults in this country, are only talking to people who actually exist.

          26. joe schmo August 2, 2014

            You don’t live in the real world, dude. Otherwise you would have a life. Pufft…liar….yah right. What a lame excuse.

            You don’t have to bitch at me about untruths. I know all about the Liberal lies.

            Ahhh, so the truth comes out. You actually spend time at home because you also have issues. I do feel for you but since you don’t give a rats ass…..

            You don’t know me. In between a chronic illness, I have worked and I mean hard. That is why I am sick today and why I am lecturing you. I worked two jobs and went to grad school while I could. I finished Grad school. I freelance at home just like you do.

            You claim to be so caring you liberals…but in reality it is a farce. You could give a flying shit on a rolling doughnut about other Americans. All you care about is your agenda and that is the complete and udder destruction of this country.

            Really! you don’t believe me. How loud do you want me to laugh. I come from a very hard working, determined bunch. Many very educated, intellectual business people in my family. My Dad is a millionaire. You know, one of the 1% you hate. My sibling is not far behind. We live the American dream and will be damned if anyone tries to take it from us. Least of all that moron of a president. My Dad came here with $7.00 in his pocket. Shoveled pig shit and was a driver for a millionaire when he came to this country. He worked his ass off to get where he’s at…..and to have someone like that ass in office take it from him….that’s pure and utter bullshit. Spread the wealth to lazy misfits who haven’t worked to earn it. FY.

            Why are you so curious to know who I am? No way Jose. I have been threatened by liberals. I have every right to speak my mind. It’s still a free country. If you dare to find out who I am…I will contact my brother in law who is a detective in law enforcement. He is very good at what he does and that is NO LIE. I will leave when I want. I have done nothing wrong, Least of all threaten people on this site, ever!

          27. Michael Ross August 2, 2014

            Spoken like a true tea-bagger: When in doubt, copy-paste his entire argument as if it somehow applies in reverse.

            Yes Joe, you are a liar. You’re not even using your real name you’re so cowardly and fraudulent.

            Once again, in fact, you’ve resorted to lying about something for which the facts can be found right above your lies about it. I DID spend time at home because I had issues (medical issues, to be precise). Then I got healthcare (thank you Obama), got to see a doctor, got diagnosed, got the necessary treatment, and literally just one month after all that was said and done, got a full-time job.

            Which is pretty clear from my opening sentence: “Illness USED to be my excuse.” But once again, the truth was inconvenient for you, so you ignored it.

            Game over, whore. You’ve been caught blatantly lying yet again, and once again the only way you know how to respond is to continue lying your ass off.

            It’s all for not, tea-bagger. At the end of the day, you and I will both know you for exactly what you are: A two-faced cowardly whore to tyrants and plutocrats, and no amount of kicking and screaming on your part will make that inconvenient truth go away.

          28. joe schmo August 2, 2014

            No I am not. If you knew me you would know I am not a liar. Sorry truth be told.

            Fat chance, I’m not cowardly or fraudulent otherwise I wouldn’t even be here sticking up for my side….. I would have left yarns ago….. I am frankly tired of Liberals with big mouths and corrupt ideas picking on Conservatives and I see I am not alone. Visit Conservatives blogs and you shall see……

            Good luck with your life child. It will be a hell of a lot harder than mine ever was….. Pay down that debt that your man has incurred…. Go for it! You will never be FREE again:)

            You really need to get a life. I have already had one. Thank God Reagan was in office when I was at a young age. It was truly a good time…..

          29. Michael Ross August 3, 2014

            Dude, you have repeatedly been caught lying.

            You have even attempted, multiple times, to lie about something in the exact same location as the thing you were trying to lie about. As in people literally scrolled past the truth before they got to read your idiot lies about it.

            The only smidgen of truth to be had in that entire bout of self-fellatio you just administered unto yourself was, once again, not in the way you intended. It was when you said my life will be harder, though it’s you and your ilk that I have to thank for it. I am earning below the minimum wage because of greedy traitors to democracy like yourself who decided to push for “right to work” laws, which would be better described as “rights for work” in that they enable employers to require that their employees forfeit all of their rights if they want to be hired.

            Yet despite me having been completely shafted by the result of your greedy whoring ways, I’m clearly the one who wound up on top anyway. That’s because I have learned to do the very thing you greedy moronic whores have been shouting at Washington to do for years even though you have never been able to do it for yourselves: Living within my means. I now recognize what is truly important in life, have balanced my budget, and despite all the best efforts of you and your ilk, now have a plan to pay off all of my debts and start saving up for the future by year’s end.

            You and your ilk, on the other hand, had everything handed to you at birth, squandered it all competing over which of you had the best everything, sold yourselves out to the plutocrats in the shallow hopes that they would give you the best everything, and now have no purpose except to spread your misery and filth all over the country when the plutocrats decided you were no longer useful to them and left you with nothing.

            You, the worthless sack of flesh who uses illness to excuse himself from practicing what he preaches, are the victim of your own selfishness and stupidity. You wanted everything, didn’t give a flying crap who had to die so you could get it, and now that you’re no longer useful to the plutocrats, they’d very much prefer it if you would just get on with dying before you have the same epiphany my father did and start voting against them.

            And for once, I find myself agreeing with said plutocrats. There is no hope for the likes of you, and no pit in Hell deep enough for it either.

          30. joe schmo August 3, 2014

            Tolerance and compassion you do not have. Isn’t that supposed to be your stance. Isn’t Coexist your favorite word? Suppose it is only for a select few who agree with you. You also don’t understand the difference between opinion and lie. You are a hypocrite. Get a life!

            You are way to young to understand about life. You will have it rough from here on out. I have already lived a great life. I don’t really need to worry. I grew up during a time when there was more freedom than you will ever experience. As things get more and more expensive, as the debt rises, and the dollar continues to devaluate further, when there is more competition from abroad, life in America will just keep getting harder to live. People will be more and more at each others throats. What do you suppose the outcome will be? Either there will be an all out war or suppression by your favorite Government. Sad to think that the United States didn’t even make the 250 year old mark. Too bad, I have already lived my life.

            If you were so well off you would not be living home with Mommy. I know all about living within my means and so does the rest of my family. Why do you think we are doing so well monetarily. Many Conservatives who run businesses know this. They also have the forethought to think ‘out of the box’ and they know how to be innovative. You all rely way too heavily on the Government Man. Especially now when times are tough. It is your side that has made it extremely difficult to make a living due to high taxes and outrageous regulations.

            Here’s a good one for you to read. Maybe you will actually learn something from it.


            Huh! I think you all are the scourge that are bringing this country down. It’s funny how many Liberals we talk to and how very angry they are. Odd? We seem to be the cool collective ones and you are the screaming banshees who are getting your way. Glad we have the common sense to keep our heads. Gives us a bit of an advantage….that is the ability to think straight under duress Many mistakes are made when emotions get in the way……and your side certainly has done that. No wonder Congress keeps their mouths shut. They are waiting for Obama to cut his own throat. He is getting very close to that. Again, weakness is a great adversary especially when it can wait and watch…….LOL

          31. Michael Ross August 4, 2014

            Why, tea-bagger, am I obligated to be tolerant while you are not? Hell, why am I obligated to be tolerant of your intolerance?

            There’s that wonderful tea-bagger hypocrisy again. Once again, the conservatives can do no wrong while the liberals can do no right in your eyes, even if they are doing the exact same thing.

            And once again, the only way you know how to respond is to continue lying your ass off, this time about things we’ve already talked about once.

            You whine that I’m living with my mother, even though I’ve already explained to you that I’m the one that’s supporting her because, unlike you, I never considered it part of the American dream to shove my parents into a home at age 18.

            You still insist on boasting that you’ve known more freedom than I ever will, even though I’ve already told you A) that I think your idea of freedom is a load of shit, B) that I hold you and other greedy whores like you solely responsible for my lack of “freedom,” and C) that I actually consider you and your ilk to be slaves to greed — that, while I am working towards freedom from debt, you and your ilk are whoring yourselves out in a never-ending quest to have the most shit.

            When do you ever make use of any of this “freedom” you claim to have so much of? Could it possibly be that you actually have no freedom whatsoever as a result of having whored yourself out to the plutocrats until you were spent and cast aside?

            This is all stuff we’ve covered before, whore, but you conveniently willed yourself to forget all of it because you didn’t like the way the discussion(s) played out before.

            Nice try, whore, but just because you didn’t like the answers doesn’t mean you’ll get better ones by spewing forth the exact same bullshit a second time around.

            That’s it.
            You lose.
            End of discussion.
            Game over.
            The Trash Heap has spoken.
            Doesn’t matter how you say it, you’re still a greedy two-faced cowardly filthy little whore that has only managed to live as long as you have because even Satan doesn’t want to have to put up with your bullshit.

            I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again, tea-bagger: Go back to Russia and kiss your conservative messiah’s ass in person.

          32. joe schmo August 4, 2014

            With your comments you have never shown me that you are one bit tolerant. Judging by the Christian charities in our camp our side tends to have more compassion than you.

            Your lack of freedom comes from your side. Remember one of the greatest presidents in modern America was Reagan. No one ever complained because, at the time, there was enough to go around. Since then it has been downhill and I include Bush in that mix because he was not a true Repub except when it came to his admiration for the military. Other than that he contributed to the downhill spiral.

            Not a slave to greed, but you are a slave to the holders of the taxes. Father government who could give a squat about you and only looks out to further their political agenda. We see it, you don’t.

            No I haven’t sold myself out to ‘plutocrats’ but you have sold your souls to the Government Man. The ‘Collective.’ You really DO NOT know freedom at all.

            Dude you have repeated yourself umpteen times. Regurgitating stupid cussing remarks that really don’t say a thing. Just like Marion stated you don’t do the research. You don’t know the facts. I haven’t heard you quote one. Conservatives do.

            Yes…..Game over. I think you all are losing it like Peloser…


            Boy, was Marino on target…. LOL

          33. Michael Ross August 6, 2014

            #1: Your “Christian charities” are neither Christian nor charitable. Donating your time and money to the poor is charity, not writing a check so Pat Robertson can buy himself a second private jet while Scott Lively pushes for the death penalty for homosexuality.

            #2: You still can’t get it through your thick skull that “freedom” is an abstract term subject to individual interpretation, and not something of which you (a greedy democracy-hating whore to plutocrats of all people) are the final authority.

            I consider myself to have plenty of freedom because, as I am living within my means, all of my free time is mine to do whatever I want with it. Your idea of freedom, on the other hand, apparently involves spending every single second of your entire life busting your ass off at work (not a surprising interpretation from a democracy-hating whore to plutocrats).

            #3: I’m not the least bit surprised that you’re willing to say that, seeing as you and Reagan belong in the exact same pit in Hell. Reagan was the man who sold the American dream to the highest bidder — the man who promised you and your ilk tax breaks, then gave them only to himself and his sponsors while forcing us to pay for them.

            Reagan’s greatness is equally proportionate to your honesty.

            #4: Yes, whore, you are a slave to greed. You said it yourself that we should all be working 24/7. How is that not slavery? By your definition, we shouldn’t even be making money since we’ll never be able to spend the money we’re making.

            This is where your willful detachment from reality will always lead you, tea-bagger: Right into the corner.

            #5: I have repeated myself for the umpteenth time because you are at war with reality. You continue to spew forth talking points that have already been killed multiple times, like you think I’ll just conveniently not recognize the latest heaping mound of crap as being identical to the last heaping mound of crap you flung at us.

            Reality, however, is not going to go away just because it’s inconvenient for you and your ego. Until you either realize the error of your ways or finally stop breathing (right now, I don’t care which comes first), I and others like me will always be here to remind you that you are a whore, that the people you are whoring yourself out to are tyrants who are literally, and openly, trying to destroy our democracy, and that not once in this nation’s 200 years of history has your brand of conservatism not resulted in disaster.

            And I have actually named examples of people on your side of the aisle openly insisting that democracy should be scaled back in this country, if not abolished completely, or even that we should be going all Third Reich on liberals. You, meanwhile, can’t name even one Democrat who has said we should scale back our voting rights. Once again, the only way you know how to respond is to lie your worthless ass off.

            I say again, whore, that it’s time for you to go back to Russia so you can whore yourself out to the tyrants in person.

            And I’m not alone in that regard. All of your beloved “Christian charities” insist Vladimir Putin is a hero too.

          34. joe schmo August 9, 2014

            Good luck with your life comrad kiddo! LOL Hail to your Marxist agenda….. You win! You’ll see or maybe you won’t….. You have no clue. I rest my case.

          35. Michael Ross August 10, 2014

            I’m not the one who took three days to come up with two lines of generic fluff, tea-bagger.

            The truth is that you’re retreating from the debate because you know there’s no winning it, ergo your only hope left is to stroke your ego by giving yourself the last word.

            The problem, of course, is that I HAVE seen; that I DO have a clue. And my truth has withstood long enough for you to finally collapse under the weight of your own hypocrisy and stupidity. I spoke the truth while you lied your worthless ass off, and the truth, as it always has and always will, has once again prevailed.

            End of story, whore. Now get your worthless hide back to Russia. Putin, your hero, is waiting there for you.

          36. Independent1 July 15, 2014

            So now you’re egging on and supporting a clearly over the top gun loving fool who’s making a complete idiot of himself!! Wow!! You know nothing about the bounds of decency do you!!!

          37. Mark Forsyth July 15, 2014

            Joe just shows up to prove how much of a schmuck he is.Guess he figures that we don’t get the message.

          38. joe schmo July 16, 2014

            Nope, you don’t!

      4. ExRadioGuy15 July 15, 2014

        This is exactly the insanity to which I refer, using a logical fallacy to support their insanity…

      5. kentallard July 15, 2014

        Not a commie, not off my rocker, not delusional, don’t need help.

        I do own a gun. A single shot, muzzle loading handgun, the kind the Founding Fathers allowed militia members to own.

        You might not be insane, but you are surely a spectacular fool who has mistaken misguided, misinformed opinion for truth.

        Insanity is a possibility though.

      6. Jim Myers July 15, 2014

        I am probably more patriotic than you are.

        However, if I had to choose between being a “commie” or joining you and your insane cronies, I would choose to be a “commie.”

        Bunch of weirdo nut cases running around showing off their “massive firepower”, scared shitless that the “gumnit” is going to take away your toys.

        If the “gumnit” did decide to confiscate your toys, do you really think you could hide from the drones, face down hundreds of Abrams tanks, bring down a few stealth fighter jets, or outmaneuver a few battalions of soldiers?

        And you think I’m insane.

        1. brucelanc July 16, 2014

          I do think you are insane. Thinking that it would even be possible for the government to confiscate anything from so many… when the “gummit” can’t even keep a few thousand children out of the country? Thinking that if something like that actually came to some sort of violence that your neighbors wouldn’t just kill you? Thinking that the “gummit” would be at all involved in any way if something like that were ever to come to violence… thinking they’d be there to keep you safe when you’ve finally pushed one of your neighbors, coworkers, or family members just a little too far? Thinking that if it really ever came to an actual fight over rights between the fringe left and whomever else that you wouldn’t be the very first to die because of your political yard signs, bumper stickers, type of vehicle you chose to drive, profession you have that attracts a certain political type, neighborhood or region you live in that attracts a certain political type… etc? I doubt it will ever come to such violence because there is absolutely zero chance you fringe little gun grabbing weirdos ever get your way… The government isn’t the problem. Really, you aren’t even the problem… You loudmouth crazy nutball commies are a little annoying though. And honestly, I sort of like pointing out the fact that you are indeed loudmouth little fringe nutballs.

          1. Jim Myers July 16, 2014

            I feel sorry for you. You truly are a pathetic piece of work.

  2. Dominick Vila July 14, 2014

    I guess I have a higher opinion of the Framers than the gun advocates do. I doubt very seriously that they would have opposed an expansion of Reagan’s gun control legislation to make it more difficult for criminals and the mentally ill to buy guns. I doubt the Framers expected citizens to run around displaying their weapons and intimidating law abiding citizens. I doubt they expected vigilantes to take matters into their own hands and murder people in the Arizona and New Mexico deserts. In fact, they were civilized, intelligent, law abiding citizens whose work emphasizes the rule of law, the need for a well regulated militia, and respecting the rights of others.

    1. brucelanc July 15, 2014

      “intimidating” Right. If you are so wuss that you faint at the thought of a gun, then the problem is yours. Did someone aim at you? Did someone actually threaten to shoot you? Did someone actually fire upon you? Were you hit? … No?? Well, commie. Go pound sand.

      1. Grannysmovin July 15, 2014

        Seems to the only wuss is a man who is so insecure with his own masculinity he has to display what he believes is his manhood for all to see. Just the mere visual contact of a Stranger – who does not wear a good guy sign – with weapon is threatening. People who were was law abiding citizens became unlawful citizens and committed horrific acts of murder against innocent people. Keep your only claim to manhood at home where it belongs, I only want police, sheriff and other law enforcement walking around with guns.

      2. Jim Myers July 15, 2014

        Real men don’t need guns to prove they are men.

        And, yes, I was an extremely accurate shooter when I was young.

        And, yes, I did have guns pointed at me. Twice.

        I do not own guns.

        God bless those in the military who put their lives on the line on a daily basis to protect idiots like you that think showing off an AR-15 or an AK47 in public makes others “respect” you and your “rights.”

        And, God bless the police who walk through our worst streets with a Bulls Eye painted on their backs.


        Not scaring little children and mothers who are minding their own business.


        1. Michael Ross July 15, 2014

          It’s true. Guns are for cowards.

          Jesse Ventura once said of war that war is a very easy decision to make because it’s only justified when you are desperate enough to send your own son into battle (which, of course, not a damn one of those G.O.P. chicken-hawks who approved the Iraq war did).

          Killing is also a very easy decision to make, one only justifiable when you are desperate enough to do it with your bare hands.

          1. Jim Myers July 15, 2014

            Thank you for your response. I used to be quite active on this site, but have curtailed my thoughts lately because of time constraints.

            But I am sick to death of the macho “Chest Thumpers” who are only respected by the other adoring “Chest Thumpers.”

            Meanwhile, women with small children have to face these worthless pieces of garbage on a daily basis.

            My God, what have they done to our beautiful Nation?

          2. Bill Thompson July 15, 2014

            Just so you know I always appreciate your thoughts and comments.

          3. Jim Myers July 15, 2014

            Thanks, Bill.

            Back atcha’.


          4. Michael Ross July 15, 2014

            The same thing they’ve always been doing to our Nation; trying to fuck it up and hold it back.

            Our entire nation’s history can be summarized as conservatives battling progressives and losing. From the Torys to the Confederates to the McCarthyists to the John Birch Society, the right has always responded to progressive ideas with hostility first and violence second.

            The Tea Party is just the latest incarnation of American conservatism’s centuries-old quest to roll back all progress, abolish democracy and restore the plutocracy. And just like all of their predecessors, they too shall fail.

          5. Jim Myers July 16, 2014

            That is quite a unique prospective on the political struggles from our birth as a Nation up to the present.

            The one glaring difference today is the attitude that “I’m right, and I refuse to negotiate anything less than full cooperation with my point of view.”

            An extremely childish attitude proudly displayed by the extremists on the “Right.”

            The biggest danger to those on the “Left” is that even though it doesn’t work, it moves the conversation towards the right.

            Slowly whittling away the interests of the 99% towards the interests of the 1%.

            The same 1% who fund those who are willing to sell their souls for 30 pieces of silver.

          6. Michael Ross July 16, 2014

            More like that, instead of murdering their adversaries, they cowardly call for murder and hope that somebody else will do it for them (I’m looking at you Ted Nugent).

            On the whole, however, they are still exactly the same crowds that progressives have been fighting since the revolution: The wannabe plutocrats that have always wanted to establish themselves as the permanent ruling class, and the thugs, thieves and bottom feeders who expect to be rewarded for helping them do it.

          7. ps0rjl July 16, 2014

            I couldn’t agree more with you. Why does anyone feel the need to walk around in public with a gun strapped to their hip or a rifle slung over their shoulder. This isn’t the Wild West. I know plenty of people who hunt and they would never think of doing that. I have two shotguns but I don’t carry them around with me. Also I was a marine during Vietnam and carried an M16. I haven’t felt the need to carry any firearms in public ever. I think carrying a gun around in public shows me that person is a little bit deranged.

          8. Jim Myers July 16, 2014

            Thank you for your service, and your comments.

            This wil be my last comment on this string.

            Although I am absolutely certain it won’t be the last from Bruce.

            I was taught to use a rifle when I was 12 years old by a kindly old gentleman named Mr. Zook.

            He was probably in his 70’s when when I was that youngster.

            Mr. Zook was a very proud member of the NRA. He was patient, soft spoken, expected our full attention, and would not tolerate anything less than full respect for the equipment he was teaching us to use.

            I thank God he did not live long enough to see what the NRA finally evolved into.

          9. brucelanc July 19, 2014

            Commie Koch sucker. Get the hell out of MY COUNTRY.

      3. JDavidS July 15, 2014

        Hey, Brucie… “Did someone aim at you?” Yup… “Did someone threaten to shoot you?” Check… “Did someone actually fire upon you?” You bet your little pink ass. “Were you hit?” Nope, thankfully not. But I had friends and “brothers” who were, and more than a few shipped home in a box. And I haven’t “carried” since and that was 44 years ago.
        You run around calling people a “wuss” and a “commie” because they disagree with you? Apparently it takes “carrying” and name-calling to make you feel like a man.
        You’re the wuss.

        1. brucelanc July 16, 2014

          If you served and are attacking the second amendment then you are breaking the oath you took. That’s low. Real low. Snake low. You took an oath… and apparently you didn’t mean it and it meant nothing to you. You’re lower than dirt. You are a disgusting turd.

          1. JDavidS July 16, 2014

            Breaking the oath I took? It’s an oath of “military service” nimrod. Once I got back to the world I was no longer bound by it. Part of it was that I would obey the orders of officers appointed over me. Once out, dimwit, I had no officers over me. Your post is not only laughable, it tells us a lot about you. You are of limited intelligence, you’re a yappy little prick from a distance and your favourite colour is yellow…probably to match the streak that runs down your back where a spine should be. Now run along, goof, before someone yells “Boo” and you shit yourself.

          2. brucelanc July 16, 2014

            You promised to defend the Constitution. If you don’t then eat a big fat dick, commie. You deserve what all traitors deserve.

      4. Independent1 July 15, 2014

        Wow!! Are we over to the top or what???

        You have to be the classic gun loving idiot. Do you even begin to realize that wearing a gun actually increases your chance of being killed by as much as 4.46 times; that when assaults occur, that someone carrying a gun (usually not the perpetrator) ends up being shot??

        Are you aware that out of 165,000 plus homicides from 2000 through 2011 that only around 1,300 of them resulted from someone trying to use a gun for self protection – that instead of being used for self protection that well over 15,000 gun carrying assault victims ended up dead. Carry a gun is far more a liability than it will ever be a means of self protection. The NRA spews lies upon lies about how a gun will protect you – but that only works for people who are experts at using a gun – not the average gun carrying American who is often a rank amateur at using one.

        Keep up your attitude. You may well regret it when you end up dead just because you had that gun over your shoulder. (Remember the guy who tried to stop the two people who recently killed several people in a Wal-Mart and Home Depot was carrying a gun; and 3 of the people that the Navy Yard shooter a while back killed were also packing guns. Packing a gun does not guarantee you safety!!!!!!!!)

        1. brucelanc July 15, 2014

          Are you threatening me? How, exactly, will I end up dead? Are you threatening to kill me? Well, I suppose there’s not much I can do about it if that’s what you plan. You will meet serious and determined resistance, so I suggest you do your best to try it from a distance (you’ll need a gun for that, so you’ll have to get over your irrational emotional issues regarding firearms) – The only two legged critters I’ve shot have all been on your behalf. I do understand that there is a certain type of person who hates me for serving… and they do tend to be the exact same sort of folks who want to force their beliefs on others and project their shortcomings and fears on to others. Generally speaking, your kind has my pity… but since you are threatening me, you won’t even have my pity any more. What you will have is an actual enemy. Ever had that before? I have. — I think you had better clarify your statement, and soon. If I were so loose with what I comment in disqus to give up my location, what I drive, and a whole host of other details about my life… I wouldn’t be stupid enough to threaten someone else’s life in public like you just did.

          1. Grannysmovin July 15, 2014

            Calm down brucelanc — take a breathe and use what ever is left of your brain and know your theatrics is just so over the top. Grow up and engage in an honest discussion but not your little girl theater to get attention.

          2. brucelanc July 16, 2014

            honest discussion with commie libs? LOL. Like that’s a thing.

          3. Grannysmovin July 16, 2014

            You are a perfect example of why people are afraid of others walking around with guns. If you go on one of your tantrums how do we know you will not just start shooting because people don’t share your opinion.

          4. Independent1 July 15, 2014

            Boy! You are a loose canon aren’t you. I’ll guarantee you that no one with an ounce of common sense person (which you obviously don’t have) took anything I said as threatening you.

            Sorry, but I don’t go around threatening or killing people, I only try to give them a little advice when that they may be bordering on getting themselves in bad situations when they clearly act like hotheads such as you have been acting here on the NM. You really need to tone you’re own threatening type rhetoric down – you have a number of posters on the NM aside from me make that comment to you already.

            I was only trying to point out that you’re the type who ends up fitting into the statistics I quoted you which were derived from numerous studies: people packing guns stand a 4.46 greater chance of being shot in an assault than people who have no gun.

          5. Mark Forsyth July 15, 2014

            Doesn’t take much to rile you,does it?Sounds more like you are the one looking for a fight and an excuse to use your gun.You are very brave on line,but you give one pause to wonder just what kind of balls you have.Being a veteran of many altercations,had you posed that question to me face to face,you would have your ass in the dirt before you got a chance to say another word.

          6. brucelanc July 15, 2014

            there it is. there’s that liberal tendency to violence. So, you were threatening me… The consequences won’t be swift, but you’ve been dumb enough to leave plenty in your disqus wake to identify you. When I’m handcuffing you, I’ll whisper my name in your ear.

          7. Mark Forsyth July 15, 2014

            I’ll be waiting for you sucker.You are a pathetic dweeb.Perhaps we all should have a look at your wake.

          8. brucelanc July 16, 2014

            I don’t leave one. … Actually. This is a teaching moment. Click my name. Go ahead. Click my name. What does it say? Does it say I’m set to private so you can’t read my previous disqus activity? There you have it. I got to teach you something. Now you actually do know at least one thing that’s based in reality. I’ll probably qualify for sainthood.

          9. Mark Forsyth July 16, 2014

            Ha! you live in fear.Were you born stupid or do you practice?You have to have a conscience to get into heaven.You’re not even conscious of your stupidity or the fact that you’re not getting any traction here.You’re just another pathetic troll,no wait,you’re a troll turd.

          10. brucelanc July 16, 2014

            I don’t need traction here. I need to keep people like you yelling at me long enough for google to keep thinking this is an active article. The more people who read the nonsense about politicizing tragedies and such the more people realize just how disgusting and nasty you fringe little gun grabbing weirdos are. And, I appreciate your help.

          11. Mark Forsyth July 16, 2014

            Are you telling us that you are a paid shill? I have my own guns,I don’t need yours or anyone elses.Frankly I don’t give a damn about your guns but rather the manner in which you might choose to use them.Someone should have taught you how to use your brains before you were trained to use a gun.You have come on this page and stupidly tried to intimidate people by claiming that they have threatened you.There is not a court in the land that would read this thread and back you up.You are a fake,a fraud,and a poseur.Your comments are no more significant than a pimple on a fleas ass.You will be ignored from this point on.

          12. latebloomingrandma July 15, 2014

            You need to do something about or anger issues. Not the kind of person want to see carrying a gun.

          13. brucelanc July 16, 2014

            You are why I carry a gun. You. You personally. You and your kind. These days, when a liberal doesn’t get their way about something, they throw a stompy foot tantrum… and too often it turns in to a murderous rage and they attempt a mass murder of innocents. It’s sad that you have become such a danger to yourself and others. It’s messed up that so many liberals freak out and commit murder. It’s absolutely unfortunate that the rest of us have to go armed because of you. Whenever a liberal is near by, everyone should keep their gun loose in the holster and keep one eye on that nutbag at all times.

          14. latebloomingrandma July 16, 2014

            Sooo—-Let me get this straight. I’m
            a danger of having a tantrum and committing mass murder,WHEN I DON’T HAVE A GUN. ??

            If I happen to cut you off in traffic and you yell out the window and give me the finger, and if I yell back, are you going to shoot me? An unarmed grandma? I don’t know of any unarmed liberal that has committed mass murder unless all us grannies are armed with cast iron skillets.

          15. brucelanc July 16, 2014

            Liberals are the ones committing all the mass murders. It’s just true. Liberals are so self-involved and selfish, they’ve become detached from humanity and have no regard for the lives of their fellow humans. It’s disgusting. They’re so wrapped up in their delusions that they’ve lost the ability to tell the difference between that la la land in their head and reality. When anything doesn’t go their way, there is a good chance they’ll do murder. Club, car, knife, gun, whatever…. they’re full of murderous rage. It’s sick. they refuse to get help. Yup. The rest of us have to go armed because liberals are nutball crazy.

          16. Allan Richardson July 16, 2014

            Only liberals commit gun crimes like mass murders?

            And I assume John Wilkes Booth was an abolitionist who was angry that Lincoln took so long to free the slaves?

          17. brucelanc July 16, 2014

            Lanza, Holmes, Dorner, Cho, Rodger, Laughner, Kacynski, Hasan, Harris & Klebold, …. the list goes on and on and on. Liberals are indeed the one’s most likely to go off their nut and try to kill a bunch of people. It’s sad, it’s sick, and you commies are beyond due to get a grip on yourselves and seek help.

          18. Allan Richardson July 17, 2014

            The fact that you use “commie,” an abbreviation of “Communist,” which is a very specific philosophy of government exemplified by LenIn, Stalin, Mao, Brezhnev, Ho Chi Minh, Castro, etc. to describe ANYONE who disagrees with you, shows that you care nothing for reasoned argument, only for name calling at a kindergarten level. Each of these men (and women, if there are any in that list) had his own unique psychological problems and his own political philosophy (if any), and his evil actions may or may not have had anything to do with his politics. Ted Kacynski, a name I recognize, did act out of a misguided conviction, which happened to be more Luddite than liberal; the others seemed to have more PERSONAL than political motives.

            I notice you did not mention Booth, James Earl Ray, the Montgomery church bombers, the killers of the three freedom riders in Mississippi, the Atlanta abortion and Olympic bomber, Timothy McVeigh, and others who committed terrorist acts in support of YOUR side of the political spectrum, if not your exact positions on every issue, and who in NO WAY could be considered “liberal” much less “commie.” And other conservatives have also committed mass murders for purely personal reasons, so they are at least as likely to do so as “liberals.”

            And note that the “liberal” terrorists you list were NEVER DEFENDED by mainstream liberals, who unanimously condemned their actions AND the more extreme of their opinions, but when right wing nut jobs such as Ted Nugent or Glenn Beck THREATEN to commit criminal acts in support of their views (but never do, because they are play acting and getting paid to well to let that cash cow go, but hoping someone anonymous will do as they suggest and take the fall), the mainstream “conservatives” who claim to be so “patriotic” ALWAYS DEFEND them.

            There is a place for conservative leaning ideas as a balance to liberal leaning ideas, but the truth is somewhere in the middle, which, ironically, liberals seem to recognize but conservatives do not. As the poet wrote, “the best lack all conviction, while the worst are filled with passionate intensity.” And calling someone “Communist” just because he does not agree with EVERYTHING you say is not balanced, either politically or mentally.

          19. Independent1 July 16, 2014

            Sorry, but you’ve got it all turned backwards – it’s clearly conservatives who are the most aggressive.

            A study was done some years ago of college students and their dreams with equal numbers of male and female conservatives and liberals (there were 14 male conservatives & 14 male liberals and 14 female conservatives & 14 female liberals.).

            Their dreams were studied for 2 years and here were the conclusions. Note that in every instance, it was the conservatives who had the were most often the aggressors in their dreams:

            People on the left were less often the initiator of aggressive interactions in their dreams, and their aggression was less physical in nature; people on the right were more often the aggressors in their dreams, and their aggression was more often physical.

            Here were the findings:

            People on the left had a greater number of dreams involving friendliness and good fortune, and fewer dreams involving misfortune; people on the right had a greater number of dreams with misfortunes, and fewer dreams with friendliness and good fortune.

            Male rights had the lowest percentage of family members and instances of sexuality, and the highest percentage of animal characters and being the aggressor.

            Male lefts had the highest frequency of female characters, and the fewest instances of aggression.

            Female lefts had the lowest percentage of being the aggressor in their dreams, and the highest frequency of friendliness and good fortunes.

            Female rights had the highest frequency of sexual interactions and physical aggression. (Bulkeley, 2001)

          20. Ace Duncan July 15, 2014

            You really give gun owners a bad rap. So macho! As long as you have your gun, stopping tyranny where it stands!

        2. kenndeb July 16, 2014

          You are right in one thing. If someone has a weapon for self defense, they must have the mindset that if they pull said weapon, they must be prepared to use it. Carrying a weapon for show, when you have no intention of using it is just foolish.

      5. ralphkr July 15, 2014

        Hey, brucelanc, unlike you Doninick is not dead from the shoulders upwards and is able to voice coherent thoughts. By the way, tough boy, for your information I have been shot once and knifed (worse) during my career and have had more than one firearm pointed at me. In one case two people were firing at me with with full automatic weapons and I silenced them with two rounds from my rifle (I was an US Army and Sheriff’s dept sniper) so I know what it is like to face down a gun toting idiots but I still do not like the idea of people deliberately going out of their way to carry their assault rifles into businesses with the intent of proving that they are “special”. Yes, they are “special” and most likely attended the classes for “special” students and rode in the small buses.

      6. ralphkr July 15, 2014

        Hey, brucelanc, unlike you Doninick is not dead from the shoulders upwards and is able to voice coherent thoughts. By the way, tough boy, for your information I have been shot once and knifed (worse) during my career and have had more than one firearm pointed at me. In one case two people were firing at me with with full automatic weapons and I silenced them with two rounds from my rifle (I was an US Army and Sheriff’s dept sniper) so I know what it is like to face down a gun toting idiots but I still do not like the idea of people deliberately going out of their way to carry their assault rifles into businesses with the intent of proving that they are “special”. Yes, they are “special” and most likely attended the classes for “special” students and rode in the small buses.

        1. brucelanc July 16, 2014

          The open carry guys… that’s a first amendment issue, not a second amendment issue. The one’s in Texas do so to point at their strange law that allows open carry of long guns, but not open carry of handguns. They are open carrying as a form of political speech. Other long gun open carriers around the country right now are also expressing political speech in what they do for various reasons. That’s something that needs to be fully appreciated and realized when considering those individuals and their actions. It isn’t designed to attract attention to themselves or their firearms. It’s designed to attract attention to their political cause. Even bad press is good press… And, honestly, if you begrudge anyone their political voice, you have an issue to work out with yourself as a citizen… especially one who has served and took the oath. … And if the description of your service was fishing for a description of mine, my first combat was Operation Just Cause. I was a Ranger then. After Panama, I got more training and was assigned to the 7th SFG… then the 10th SFG… then the 5th SFG. So, you can probably look at old calendars and figure out the where and when and what I was probably doing and why.

      7. Artemisia2 July 18, 2014


        1. brucelanc July 18, 2014

          Koch sucker

    2. RobertCHastings July 15, 2014

      There is, today, NO need for a militia and, thus, no Constitutional need for the protections afforded by the Second Amendment. The Founders, through the experiences learned from the constant wars on the European continent, deeply feared the establishment of a standing army, thus the preference for a militia. It did NOT take them long to change their minds and recognize that, in order for the American states to remain free, they must have an army rather than remaining dependent upon a militia.

  3. Russell McKay July 14, 2014

    “Every adult man (eventually, every white man) served through their entire lifetime. They were actually required to own a gun, and bring it from home.” NOT SO FAST. One should review the The Militia Act of 1792:

    “. . . every State shall always keep up a well-regulated and disciplined militia, sufficiently armed and accoutered, and shall provide and constantly have ready for use, IN PUBLIC STORES, a due number of filed pieces and tents, and a proper quantity of arms, ammunition and camp equipage.

    “All MUSKETS from arming the militia as is herein required, shall be of bores sufficient FOR BALLS of the eighteenth part of a pound; and every citizen so enrolled, and providing himself with the arms, ammunition and accoutrements, required as aforesaid, shall hold the same exempted from all suits, distresses, executions or sales, for debt or for the payment of taxes.

    “That every citizen, so enrolled and notified, shall, within six months thereafter, provide himself with a good musket or firelock, a sufficient bayonet and belt, two spare flints, and a knapsack, a pouch, with a box therein, to contain not less than twenty four cartridges, suited to the bore of his musket or firelock, each cartridge to contain a proper quantity of powder and ball; or with a good rifle, knapsack, shot-pouch, and powder-horn, twenty balls suited to the bore of his rifle, and a quarter of a pound of powder; and shall appear so armed, accoutred and provided, when called out to exercise or into service, except, that when called out on company days to exercise only, he may appear without a knapsack. That the commissioned Officers shall severally be armed with a sword or hanger, and espontoon; and that from and after five years from the passing of this Act, all muskets from arming the militia as is herein required, shall be of bores sufficient for balls of the eighteenth part of a pound; and every citizen so enrolled, and providing himself with the arms, ammunition and accoutrements, required as aforesaid, shall hold the same exempted from all suits, distresses, executions or sales, for debt or for the payment of taxes.”

    As for the omission of personal firearms for protection, sport and hunting, one wonders why wording or an additional amendment wasn’t adopted like that presented at the Pennsylvania state ratifying convention, on December 12, 1787, when Robert Whitehill had made an amendment that proposed the following:

    “7. That the people have a right to bear arms for the defense of THEMSELVES and their own state, or the United States, OR FOR THE PURPOSE OF KILLING GAME; and no law shall be passed for disarming the people OR ANY OF THEM, unless for crimes committed, OR REAL DANGER OF PUBLIC INJURY FROM INDIVIDUALS; and as standing armies in the time of peace are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be kept up: and that the military shall be kept under strict subordination to and be governed by the civil power.

    “8. The inhabitants of the several states shall have liberty to fowl and hunt in seasonable times, on lands they hold, and on all other lands in the United States not inclosed, and in like manner to fish all navigable waters, and others not private property, without being restrained therein by any laws to be passed by the legislature of the United States.”

    This is one of the very rare instances where I have ever found clear mention of firearms being kept for PERSONAL protection and/or for use in sport or game. Until I stumbled upon this, I wasn’t even sure the Founding Fathers ever even contemplated or felt concerned that PERSONAL firearm ownership would be questioned or restricted. They certainly didn’t bother to spell it out in the final version of the Bill of Rights. But the passages above also help bring better clarity to the 2nd Amendment as it does exist, and you can see why I have always felt that it had almost everything to do with militias and almost nothing to do with a personal right to own a firearm. It is oft confusing as to what the term “the people” refers to, but in most cases, it refers to a GROUP, or a COLLECTIVE of citizenry. It MIGHT be that an individual right is conveyed, but moreover, it is a right granted to “the people” as a whole. Their arcane way of putting things — probably more clear to them in their day — is given a smidgen of clarity when Mr. Whitehill stated in his amendment, ” . . . for disarming the people OR ANY OF THEM.” Both the people as a group, and as individuals are specified here in what almost seems to be redundant verbiage. But unlike the Second Amendment, Mr. Whitehill’s proposed amendment CLEARLY address INDIVIDUAL firearms ownership, way beyond the provision that might allow “the people” to have firearms held in a collective armory for use of the militia when called for.

    1. Bill Thompson July 15, 2014

      Very informative and well written, it is a piece that I will archive and use in the future.Tthanks for your hard work.

    2. johninPCFL July 15, 2014

      Thank you for posting this. Well researched and concise.

    3. Independent1 July 15, 2014

      As mentioned by others, thanks for a very informative post!!

      It seems to me that the fact that Amendments 7 & 8 were even offered makes it clear that the 2nd Amendment was considered at the time to be purely about militias. Had the delegates there believed that the 2nd Amendment conferred on people the rights that gun lovers today like to believe, much of the wording in amendment offerings 7 & 8 would not have been needed. Which to me makes it even more clear, that the SCOTUS in 2008 bastardized the meaning of the 2nd Amendment by saying that it pertains to individual ownership, as a clear giveaway to the conservative judges allegiance to the NRA.

  4. brucelanc July 15, 2014

    LOL. “The Constitution shall never be construed…to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.’ sam Adams. The first 10 Amendments are God given, not govt given, not approved or disapproved by one’s neighbors, not debatable. They’re not for sale. They’re not for rent. They have nothing to do with Man, Men, People, Citizens, or Society. God Given is God Given.

    Shall not be infringed is about as plain language as can be. You commies need to recognize reality and go pound sand.

    1. Chalrley Walker July 15, 2014

      Thomas Jefferson, NOT GOD, was assigned the task of writing the Declaration of Independence for the Continental Congress to have something to vote on. Jefferson suffered major writer’s block for two weeks, until Sam Adams and Benjamin Franklin sent for Mrs. Jefferson. Emerging from their bed, Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence which became the cornerstone for revolution and the United States of America.

      The new CONGRESS — NOT GOD — had several factions which battled for months over every word and after settling on the main body of the document, gradually settled upon the exact wording of the bill of rights — the Amendments — as the method for securing ratifying votes from all Thirteen Independent States’ legislatures.

      Not GOD GIVEN — Strictly the product of open political debate and massive compromise.

      Abolitionists wanted a ban to slavery, finally gave up.

      Others wanted universal voting rights, finally gave up.

      Some, including Sam Adams, wanted absolute freedom for individuals to own and carry firearms — finally gave up — and as a result we have the Second Amenment, which specifies “A well regulated militia,” — not every mentally defective gets a killing machine to go hunting innocent children, mothers, fathers, or any other human being.
      Please leave your address, so we can have the NYC drug gangs call and explain how they ignore all parts of the constitution and New York statutes — criminal and civil.

    2. Grannysmovin July 15, 2014

      Sorry God gave the Ten Commandments not the 10 Amendments. Also The declaration that “the Government of the United States of
      America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion” appears in article 11 of the Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary (commonly known as the Treaty of Tripoli), which was approved by the U.S. Senate and signed by President John Adams in 1797.

    3. esg July 15, 2014

      The only commie is yourself in that you wnat to rule the people with weapons and lack the intellictual capacity to think completely through the problem. Your language is even offensive. How can you go about life in such a hatefule manner i believe someone should consider your mental state seriously and take your guns away.

    4. The lucky one July 15, 2014

      You say god gave you the right to carry a gun but you then say others need to recognize reality. The “reality” is that you are a moron and a case in point as to why gun ownership needs strict regulation. Jeez who wants someone with your maturity level walking around in public with a gun. But maybe I’m worried over nothing and you’re not allowed off the grounds without adult supervision.

      1. dave July 15, 2014

        Watch the news and see how much good the geniuses who believe are doing themselves and others.They call the cops to alert them that they’re going to ‘demonstrate’ the right to open carry.Then they barge into some public setting,a store
        a restaurant for example,[chipotle],then wonder why the public is scared of THEM ??? MORE guns can’t be the answer,more intelligent gun owners wouldn’t hurt. !!

        1. The lucky one July 15, 2014


    5. Mark July 15, 2014

      So you are equating Thomas Jefferson and the other writers of the Constitution with God? Careful the almighty does not smite you down.

      1. brucelanc July 15, 2014

        Uneducated… sheesh. Must be that common core education I keep reading about. Do yourself a favor and start spending time at the library. “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these…”

        1. joe schmo July 15, 2014

          I tell them that all the time. It’s our secular/liberal education talking. They don’t seem to understand that spelling…and grammar…..have been replaced by ‘new math,’ in the early 70’s,’ no child left behind, and now Common Core. Why can’t they just quit experimenting with our kids and dumbing them down to meet the expectations of the illiterate. Discipline, responsibility and competition have gone right out the window. That is why we are dead last in reading, and below average in math and science when compared with the rest of the modern world. What ever happened to good old fashioned phonics, spelling tests, writing tests, math and science. It’s as simple as reading, writing and arithmetic.

  5. howa4x July 15, 2014

    Gun ownership seems to be divided into responsible and irresponsible people. Responsible owners realize that the weapon they posses can do harm and can kill, and back laws that keep guns out of the hands of unstable people. Irresponsible owners think guns are more like toys and any fool can own one, be they clinically deranged or a criminal. Sensible gun laws don’t disarm the gun owners as some on the fringe yell, they are meant to protect the public from a real danger. Since the NRA’s swing to the fringe the murder rate has skyrocketed. Mass shootings are common and the zeal to sell more guns drives every issue. The 6,400 women killed by angry husbands illustrates to danger of unregulated guns. While I value every life I think that more NRA fanatics and right wing politicians children need to die in mass shootings before that group wakes up. It seems noting else shakes them into reality, not even 24 defenseless children murdered.

    1. iowasteve July 15, 2014

      NO, that won’t work – remember – Bundy Ranch? Those republican gun nuts there actually told the news media that if the shooting started they would put the women and children in the front to be killed first. I seriously doubt that their children killed in a mass school shooting would have any effect on them at all – other than to blame the shootings on Obama and the liberal democrats for not doing the job the republicans prohibited them from doing in the first place.

      1. joe schmo July 15, 2014

        Gosh, we have one incident and you all have a heart-attack. What about all the violence in the 60’s created by you all. Bill Ayers and his explosive group, black panthers, etc….. Suppose you have all forgotten about how violent you have been in the past and still are…. Tolerance and Coexist my ass. I could go on and on and on…. In the past, we have been the peaceful ones. But we can only be pushed and bullied into the corner for so long…..

  6. Mark July 15, 2014

    If we can ever educate the people of this country as to the legal definition of “militia”, we would win the argument then and there. Once you understand what a militia really is, the meaning of the 2nd Amendment becomes crystal clear, no matter your philosophy. Awfully hard for a hard for the NRA to argue legal rights, if their favorite amendment doesn’t actually guarantee that right.

    1. joe schmo July 15, 2014

      What don’t you get…. It’s in the first line of the 2nd Amendment –

      ‘The Second Amendment (Amendment II) to the United States Constitution protects the right of individuals[1][2] to keep and bear arms.’

      Notice…..’individuals’……? YOU JUST DON’T GET IT!

  7. Eleanore Whitaker July 15, 2014

    The NRA is chiefly responsible for overlapping the intent of the 2nd Amendment time after time. This is no different than the US SC using the 1st amendment rights to make the claim that corporations are “people.” Are they? Will we see them seated next to us in church? You bet not.

    What’s happening in the US is THE most dangerous situation. The proliferation of guns by unregulated militias aren’t gun owners who NEED guns to survive. They WANT guns to show the public whose boss.

    The number of cops being shot is proof today that these gun nuts are out to end all law enforcement so they can BE the ONLY law in this country. Allow that and you get the rivers of blood and more dead children you asked for.

  8. joe schmo July 15, 2014

    Do you know that for several centuries the 2nd Amendment was NEVER questioned. Your extremist left-winger ways are getting old. We already don’t trust our government. What makes you think we trust it more now?
    We don’t.

    Taking the guns away from the common citizen’s is an absolutely insane idea. You won’t stop at multi-clip semi-automatics, your side will continue to push and whittle away at it one little piece at a time until it is gone. We are fighting that and will continue to do so through the NRA. The more you push us the more money goes into the NRA’s account.

    Especially nowadays when crime is through the roof, you will not see many people leaning to your side. Oh, that’s right, some of you are gun owners. Why Diane Feinstab runs around with a gun in her purse… Who knew.

    If it push ever came to shove (we hope it never does) who’s side would I rather be on…….. Certainly not yours.

    1. The lucky one July 15, 2014

      Actually violent crime is down.

      1. joe schmo July 16, 2014

        Gee, I wonder why….Must be all the guns people went out and bought when word got out each time a new anti-gun law came out……

        1. The lucky one July 16, 2014

          That’s right Joe whenever what you want to believe runs up against reality just rationalize away the facts. What’s really scary about guns is the level of maturity and intelligence of so many that carry.

          1. joe schmo July 16, 2014

            Well, you might as well add the Dems to that gun toting group. Conservatives are not the only ones who have guns. Of course we are the group that has more but oh well. Oh and by the way, most of the assassins in this country have been Democrats. So who are the irresponsible crazy people within the gun group?

          2. The lucky one July 17, 2014

            Party affiliation is not an indicator of intelligence or maturity. You didn’t finish your thought (if it qualifies as such) You are the group that has…more guns, that’s all nothing more. Interesting I never knew that Sirhan, Oswald, Ray were democrats

          3. joe schmo July 18, 2014

            Speaking for yourself now are we. We have the most guns….that’s nothing. How hard do you want me to laugh. Doesn’t that tell you something already.

            ‘King was killed by James Earl Ray, a Democrat and repeat offender.’

            ‘Sirhan, sirhan raised Christian took on Muslim views. Never became an American citizen even though he was raised here. A motive cited for his actions is the Middle East conflict.[18] After his arrest, Sirhan said, “I can explain it. I did it for my country.”[18] Sirhan believed he was deliberately betrayed by Kennedy’s support for Israel in the June 1967 Six-Day War.

            Oswald, much like the progressive ideology was a self-proclaimed Communist.

            Hmmmm, next time do some research. They were certainly not Conservatives:)

    2. bobnstuff July 15, 2014

      I keep hearing that they are coming for my gun. If we pass anything it means they take everything, How stupid are you. Even if the wanted to take our gun, I mean my rifle it could never happen, There are so many guns out there and so few people to look for them, Controlling guns would be like controlling pot, it can’t be done. Heck they can’t even enforce the speed limit. Laws work by the consent of the people. The NRA is in the business of selling guns to people who don’t need them. They do it by scaring them. No one needs a Multi-clip semi-automatic gun. but the gun shops can’t keep them in stock. Talk about marketing.

      1. joe schmo July 16, 2014

        Not like we don’t have anything to be afraid of do we…… LOL…

        1. bobnstuff July 16, 2014

          No we don’t unless you count the nut jobs like you. Just who is going to take my guns. The police, not my local cops, The army, not unless the government falls, that would be from the right wing nuts. Just what has the government done to you? We have lost more rights under the republicans then under the present administration. I don’t fear my government. There are people out there that tell you that you should but if you believe them you are the true fool;

          1. joe schmo July 16, 2014

            To be honest with you, I hope the military does step in. Obama doesn’t like the military….not a good thing. I have always said that I would rather be on the side of the rednecks, bikers, veterans, military, police etc….. which does not include your side that’s for sure.

            My government is no longer my government. It is foreign. It is Communist. My father lived under 3 different regimes in his lifetime. He is 88 years old. He escaped from Communism, I grew up with family in Communist Europe, I went to Communist Europe at age 12. My father says it, I see it. Don’t believe me. Too bad…. You have no clue what you are asking for. You think you are comfortable now. Just wait until the tables from your self proclaimed regime turns on you. History repeats itself. You think we are not penetrable. Your wrong. It is so obvious it stinks. You are an even bigger fool than me. You’ll see.

          2. bobnstuff July 17, 2014

            You say you would rather have military rule then what we have now. Either you are lying or a fool. You think this is communism. Last time I checked we where capitalist, You do know Communism is a economic term, I have owned four business’s so I’m pretty sure we don’t have a communist government. You have been drinking the cool ail.
            The other thing is you haven’t been reading my posts very well. I never said that I had anything against owning guns, I own them. I see no reason for semi-automatic guns with a thirty round clip. That gun is for killing large numbers of people. If you need thirty shots you shouldn’t have a gun.
            I’m on the side of the Police, the military and any freedom loving person. I hope you don’t think the republicans are. They cut funds for the police and pay our military so little they have to get food stamps. The Patriot Act took more freedoms away then anything Obama has done.

  9. LasloPratt July 15, 2014

    Just to add to the fun, if one’s exposure to 18th Century sentence construction is not limited to select clauses of the Constitution, one realizes that the 2nd Amendment is written conditionally. Just sayin’

    The sad irony is that the 1st Amendment, which is written as an absolute, is treated as conditional, while the 2nd, which is written conditionally, is treated as an absolute.

  10. ExRadioGuy15 July 15, 2014

    I’ve already identified four logical fallacies in Gun Nut arguments….
    All or Nothing: they wrongly believe that the only two choices available are a total gun ban for private citizens or doing nothing…and, of course, you know which one they choose….
    Special Pleading (Cherry-Picking): this is probably the worst one. They simply ignore the first 13 words of the Second Amendment, “a well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state”, and call for a strict interpretation of what’s left, “the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed”…..
    Straw Man: the Gun Nuts wrongly claim that those who wish to have sane and reasonable gun legislation actually want that aforementioned total gun ban…it’s pathetic…..
    The fourth logical fallacy is known as “Tu Quoque”, or projection, whereby they try to justify their lunacy about guns by calling those who wish to have reasonable and sane gun legislation “crazy” and “gun-grabbers”.
    Unfortunately, this gun lunacy and the logical fallacies used to try and support it is not limited to the Gun Nuts. The GOP/Fascist Christian Plutartheocrats (FCPers) and the Religious Zealots (who are also GOP/FCPers) use logical fallacies to try to justify their insanity.
    In a Facebook note I entitled, “Why are we letting a loud and WRONG minority control the political debate and policies?”, I detail the fact that these lunatic factions are truly a minority in this country. Until the “Silent Majority” speaks up, the dysfunction will continue….

    1. joe schmo July 15, 2014

      Silent Majority? Well, that certainly is not you. Sounds more like our side. We are getting mighty tired of your crap…..

      1. ExRadioGuy15 July 15, 2014

        LMAO…again, using logical fallacies to support your insanity is not going to work

        1. Mark Forsyth July 15, 2014

          Why is it that the guys with the guns are so afraid? I’ve owned guns all my life and have never subscribed to this whacked out mindset.Never felt the need to cary my rifle around either.

        2. joe schmo July 16, 2014

          Unfortunately, we are not the ones who have gone to the ‘Dark Side.’ LOL

  11. charles king July 15, 2014

    Why? can’t reasonable people sit down and use some critical thinking along with common sense and solve these problems about the usages and sell of guns. Who? make the laws for our ownership, all I hear people talk about is the second amendment. What? make it of concern When? someone take the life of school children, Where? do the conversation go to. Who? the hell is in charge When? people with guns, K I L L. Answer some of these questions and maybe with our civic duties the country will take on safety values for our citiztions. Our Congress is seriously divided and nothing is being done to move our country in the right direction for public safety so check out Who? is causing back-lashes, the VOTE is still Supreme, you know Which? ones Who? are not doing their jobs, V O T E their A**** Out. Thank You are the magic words in my book. I Love Ya All. Mr. C. E. KING

  12. jwhite146 July 15, 2014

    Sadly, almost all the mass shooting have been done with arms that were brought illegally. And criminals seem to have no difficulty in getting weapons. Just look at Mexico where there is only one legal gun store but lots of auto weapons in the hands of criminals. So need better way of labeling the mentally ill as far too many states do not shared their list of who is not able to legally buying weapons.

    1. bobnstuff July 17, 2014

      I wonder were they get this guns, Is someone making them in a garage, I don’t think so they must come from the manufactures. If the manufactures were held responsible for what happens with there product they might be more careful where they end up. How about gun dealers, do they care who they guns to, some do some don’t. What about the legal gun owners, Do they have some responsibility for their guns. The second amendment Gives us the rights but should it not make us responsible for what happens with them.

  13. Stuart July 15, 2014

    Besides Dodge, Tombstone had one, too. In fact, the shootout at the OK Corral was, technically, over the ordinance. But in the judicial inquiry that followed, Judge Spicer made no mention of the 2nd Amendment, nor did he mention any 2nd Amendment arguments made by the Clantons or McLaurys.


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