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GOP Health Care Bill Recycles Tired Moralizing Of The Poor

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GOP Health Care Bill Recycles Tired Moralizing Of The Poor


Conservatives are a curious bunch. They profess a sunny faith, most of the time, in the unique power of free markets to lift society’s poor and afflicted. Yet when markets fail and government steps in to deliver social goods or services, to alleviate suffering or poverty or misdistribution, conservatives switch their tune to moral outrage.

Case in point: the current debate over repealing and replacing the Affordable Care Act. The health care system set up by this law, commonly known as Obamacare, is not perfect but it made huge strides toward two vital social objectives: decreasing the number of uninsured Americans and putting a brake on the spiraling trend of national health care costs.

Some conservatives hate Obamacare because of the president whose namesake it is. Others hate it because they think anything the government does to soften the blows of free-market discipline is immoral. It spares the poor from their deserved punishment. And, of course, Obamacare operated through a framework of taxes and mandates and regulations — all things that good conservatives execrate.

The problem is, as a few conservative thinkers have realized, Americans now mostly support the proposition that all citizens are entitled to health care regardless of their resources, and that this can only be accomplished with large-scale government intervention.

So Republicans in Congress face an unsavory choice: to simply repeal Obamacare or to repeal it and replace it with an ersatz version. The GOP’s American Health Care Act seeks to repeal many of the taxes that paid for the Affordable Care Act. It limits future access to Medicaid for poor enrollees. It increases the burden of insurance premiums on older enrollees.

The AHCA is rightly being derided as a cruddy facsimile of Obamacare that massively shifts wealth from the lowest income brackets to the highest. The rationales for foisting this botch on the not-so-well-to-do are grounded in that old conservative disposition to blame the poor for their poverty.

Just listen to them.

Earlier in the week, Rep. Jason Chaffetz, a Republican of Utah, boldly dismissed the idea that the GOP’s proposed jacked-up premiums would hurt the poor. These people, he explained, just need to forgo buying the latest iPhone.

A few days prior, Rep. Roger Marshall of Kansas stirred the same pot by claiming that poor people “just don’t want health care and aren’t going to take care of themselves.”

Marshall, an obstetrician, doubled down by adding, “I think just morally, spiritually, socially, (some people) just don’t want health care.”

Both Marshall and Chaffetz have since walked back their comments. But we should expect the GOP to keep pressing plans that limit people’s access to Medicaid. Because too many people firmly believe that expansion to such help will only invite more dependence, less personal accountability, more sloth.

This is a narrative we’ve been hearing from Republicans — and a lot of Democrats, too — for years. They blame low-income people for their own troubles while failing to address low wages, educational gaps, and a range of economic factors that aren’t easily explained by simplistic moralizing.

Misconceptions about poverty are deeply set in American political discourse. Supposed moral deficiencies are a convenient pretense for ignoring differences in economic conditions and opportunity — differences that redound to the benefit of the moralizers. So they shame others for behavior, for failure to heed the rules of the free market, and they regard any attempt by government to ameliorate outcomes as moral hazard.

Such thinking has led to awful public policy, regardless of the party acting under these ideas. It accounted for Bill Clinton’s Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act 1996 to reform welfare. It now inspires the GOP’s dismal health care “reform.”

Yes, personal choices and behaviors have an impact on personal health and economic outcomes. But leave the sermonizing for the pulpit. Most who go without health insurance do so for one of two reasons: They either believe they are too healthy to need it, or they can’t afford it. Obamacare addressed both of these issues.

When devising public policy, we need to take this perspective: “There but for the grace of God go I.”

If we did, our health care and educational systems would be geared to ensure security and opportunity for all, and that none would have to suffer simply because they are poor.

IMAGE: Donald Trump meets with Speaker of the House Paul Ryan on Capitol Hill. REUTERS/Joshua Roberts

Mary Sanchez

Mary Sanchez has spent years covering immigration, schools, and other volatile beats for The Kansas City Star. She is now an editorial columnist for the Star, where she continues to offer insightful commentary on immigration, culture, and politics.

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  1. Carl Sdano March 13, 2017

    Reminds me of the 2008 financial meltdown, where some GOPers blamed the crash on too many people getting mortgages they couldn’t afford & not on the devious financial instruments & speculation of Wall Street & bankers.

    1. Thoughtopsy March 13, 2017

      “Blame the victim”
      It’s the Republican way.

      Oh… unless it’s a corporation.
      Then it’s the Government’s fault that the poor corporation suffered.

      1. Melindaccarter March 14, 2017

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    2. sigrid28 March 14, 2017

      Now we have one of those “devious” bandit Wall Street bankers as secretary of the Treasury and a pirate of the oil-shipping seas and crony of Russian oligarchs, another banker, this one heading the corrupt Bank of Cyprus, awarded the post of secretary of Commerce.

  2. Aaron_of_Portsmouth March 13, 2017

    The GOP has a strange and irrational personality marked by a perverse duality—a duality marked by two aspects. One aspect presents one “face” of a false sense of morality, while the other face is that of some mechanical monster that can only think in terms of money and fiscal policies. In both cases, the signs of an unmistakable pernicious case of materialism and moral laxity are clearly evident. Like some planet with two sides that are complete opposites, extremely hot and desert-like on one side, while the other is chara

  3. Aaron_of_Portsmouth March 13, 2017

    The poor who feel compelled morally to support any entity like the GOP need to stop, reflect, and think about how they are consigning themselves to a fate akin to a permanent zombie-like existence, controlled by the Pied Pipers of the GOP, and any other like-minded ideological conceptions who seek only to support the needs of single-minded insular constituencies.

    1. dbtheonly March 14, 2017

      Would disagree.

      “The poor who feel compelled morally to support any entity like the GOP need to stop.”

      Needs to read:

      Everyone who feels compelled morally…

  4. TZToronto March 13, 2017

    Speaking of simplistic moralizing, from the GOP perspective, more people insured means greater cost since all of those poor people who never had health insurance before will suddenly rush to a doctor to get healing for whatever they had that had gone untreated for years. The simplistic part of this is that while many people might be seeing a doctor for the first time in years, whatever ailments they have might actually be treated before they become expensive. In the long term, costs might actually drop since previously sick people will become presently healthy people. Of course, this assumes that the GOP wants poor people to be insured, and it appears that this is a faulty assumption.

  5. Sand_Cat March 13, 2017

    The GOP and the merciless hypocrites who constitute its “base” are in no position to moralize about anything but their own malice toward racial/ethnic/sexual minorities, the poor, and women.

    1. FireBaron March 14, 2017

      And ironically enough, their base are among the the most needy recipients of the benefits of the ACA. Unfortunately, they have been pummeled since 1981 with the “Government is evil” mantra, and all the falsehoods regularly spouted on Talk Radio, that they have no idea that the reason they can now afford health insurance that provides more than a copay for band-aids and aspirin is the ACA. This is why I always say that at least 60% of those who vote for GOP Candidates are voting against their own best self-interest. Whenever they vote for a GOP candidate they are voting against minimum wage laws, overtime laws, workplace protections, environmental protections, rent control, redlining, etc.
      Although, when you consider the GOP has their ad campaigns run by the same companies that ran cigarette ads even 20 or more years after the surgeon general linked cigarettes to cancer (and the GOP tries to deny that, too), they have done a damn good job convincing people to vote that way.

      1. dbtheonly March 14, 2017

        The lack of money impacts healthcare in many different ways.

        Whether it’s lack of access to medications, over medication, lack of adequate diet, or impossibility of certain actions.I remember my Doctor telling em that she, my Doctor, wanted to tell a patient at the clinic to get much more rest, but with three small children, that simply wasn’t going to happen.

        So it’s not just access. It’s that indigencey impacts the entire range.

      2. Sand_Cat March 15, 2017

        Same idea as the cigarette ads: deny science, conceal the truth.

  6. Thoughtopsy March 13, 2017

    So Republicans believe that you take someone who was born poor, therefore got a poorer education, and is struggling to make ends meet… and you take away the little assistance they currently get… and that magically makes them better educated, suddenly able to find more job opportunities, and empowered to improve their lives…

    The level of simplistic f**ktard thinking has reached “Extreme”.

    If these stuffed-shirt, wealthy, white, one percenters ever actually went to a place where normal people were working 2 jobs, unable to afford healthcare for their children, and still on social security to make ends meet, and asked them what would help them move up the ladder…. I f**king guarantee that no-one would answer: “Give me less help.”

    You see to GOPers Money == Virtue.
    It’s all based on the following fable they love to tell themselves:
    If you’re wealthy you obviously were incredibly smart, motivated and cunning… and built your assets up from nothing, lifting yourself up by your own bootstraps through your deep personal wisdom, godliness, and business genius.

    Despite that being idiotic.
    Despite that being patently untrue in most cases.
    Despite many/most of them inheriting their self-sustaining levels of wealth.

    Because of this fantasy about themselves, they also believe the opposite about the poor:
    If you’re poor you obviously were incredibly stupid, lazy and unmotivated, and squandered your money on iPhones, cheap crap, and drugs,…and failed to lift yourself up by your own bootstraps through your deep personal failings, lack of virtue, and by squandering all the easy opportunities offered to you to become a millionaire.

    On this basis the poor can be:
    – demonized
    – told they are complicit in their own suffering and none of it is the GOP’s fault.
    – told they don’t want healthcare
    – told they shouldn’t receive help because they would only waste it
    – told they should stop buying iPhones and use their middle class income (wot?) on buying healthcare
    – told that they have it too easy and the best way to motivate them is to take away the current help they get… You know… maybe a few of them dying will motivate the others to try harder…

    It’s sick, wasteful, cruel, and requires the incredible levels of personal arrogance that appear to be almost exclusively attainable by wealthy white male Republican politicians who think spending less than $500 on lunch is “hardship”.

    1. Karen March 14, 2017

      Don’t let up. 2 thumbs up!!

      1. Thoughtopsy March 14, 2017

        Thank you, ma’am!
        I try.

    2. InformedVoter March 14, 2017

      Once more you post nothing but FAKE MSM drivel and think you are posting facts. Typical low information lefty.

      1. ⚡️ I Am Helpy ⚡️ March 14, 2017

        ^ this guy fell for an obvious hoax and thinks he won a Special Award For Good Posting. He also spends literally days at a time yelling at an automatic reply bot, as you will see after this post.

        1. InformedVoter March 14, 2017

          Hey HELLpy, the Pathetic poster of lies and earner of the title “usually inaccurate”: caught you in yet another LIE! No auto reply bot, as you obviously read and respond.
          Your last accuracy rating was 12.67% and with the lies you’ve been posting recently, that rating is sure to drop.

          1. ⚡️ I Am Helpy ⚡️ March 14, 2017

            So still no quote, huh. Another gold star for me!

          2. ⚡️ I Am Helpy ⚡️ March 14, 2017

            Hahahaha I love – LOVE – that some genius has convinced you there are “accuracy ratings” on this website.

            You. Are. A. Moron.

        2. Thoughtopsy March 14, 2017

          I blocked him.
          The inability to argue logically, the constant straw men, the multiple attempted diversions, and the extreme willful ignorance all finally just made me sad.
          It’s sort of like watching a blind, rabid dog with no legs frothing at the mouth and desperately trying to bite your ankle…

          1. ⚡️ I Am Helpy ⚡️ March 14, 2017

            I’m hoping, one day, to find out who convinced him there were all these awards and ratings. I’m sure the story behind that is hilarious.

            But yeah, he’s been following me around for three months or so because I asked him to quote the email that showed that Hillary did … something-or-other, I forget. He’s super mad that he can’t find one, so obviously that is my fault.

          2. Thoughtopsy March 14, 2017

            I guess that’s….. consistent? :O

            I notice the willfully ignorant knuckle-draggers seem to blame you for a lot of things. Maybe, when the economy inevitably goes down the toilet, they’ll try to blame you for Trump, too.


          3. sigrid28 March 14, 2017

            Maybe he’s Donald Trump. That sounds like something he’d do.

          4. ⚡️ I Am Helpy ⚡️ March 14, 2017

            Also I think he’s mad because I said I was awarded a Gold Star for being better than him.

          5. Thoughtopsy March 14, 2017


      2. CPANY March 15, 2017

        “Fake MSM….” Is that like the fake news that our demented president keeps complaining about?

        1. InformedVoter March 17, 2017

          Oh boy, so now you’re going to claim that the MSM does not make up stories? Get real! They published FAKE polls that showed that HilLIARy was going to win in a landslide. So how did that work out for you? I kept posting that their polls were FAKE and all you guys did was to mock me, even when I provided links to polls that showed that President Trump would win.

    3. sigrid28 March 14, 2017

      And plus the Republicans undermined the health care exchanges by seeing that not all states had to commit to them. They, themselves, saw to it that competition in the health insurance marketplace would be cut down in any state opting out of managing an exchange. I don’t have much sympathy for their DEEP concern about these exchanges now failing with only one insurer left to enroll Americans: They made this happen. Now they want to act like the ACA is failing of its own accord. Give me a break.

      1. Thoughtopsy March 14, 2017

        Yes they threw a few wrenches into Obamacare at various points… then act surprised when premiums go up, or issues arise.

        I still think that the worst one was fighting Single Payer to their last breath, resulting in the Romneycare compromise of Private Insurance markets in the first place.

        Obamacare WAS the Republican backup plan. It’s no wonder “Trumpcare” looks like a Frankenstein pile of garbage.

        1. sigrid28 March 14, 2017

          We have been beneficiaries in our family of the mental health parity requirement of the ACA that kicked in one or two years ago. It was a godsend for families with children on the autism spectrum (and with other lifelong disabilities) who can only be diagnosed, treated, and prescribed medication by a child and adolescent psychiatrist: Now all health insurers must treat these costs as if they are “medical,” for a disease or a broken leg, for example. In fact, lifelong disabilities are not mental illnesses just because they are diagnosed and treated by psychiatrists. The ACA cured two-faced insurers of this fallacy. My point is, however, that they did so in part because mental health parity was such a successful aspect of Romneycare in Massachusetts. In this case, it was good that Democrats were able to bring in this great equalizer under this rubric.

          But nothing beats the simplicity itself of accessing health care in Great Britain and France, where I lived for over a year, in both countries. We were visitors with an appropriate visa both times, and in both of these enlightened countries my family and I were able to receive superb health care when we needed it at a price far below that in the U.S. In France, the local doctor, who was excellent and spoke decent English, made house-calls for $35. Medication for a lupus-like thing I live with–medication that worked like a dream–cost $6 per month in France and $87 per month back in the U.S. (less for generic).

  7. Dominick Vila March 14, 2017

    The fact that the GOP is replacing the Affordable Care Act, a piece of legislation designed to help those who could not afford high insurance premiums and those who were denied coverage for a variety of reasons, with a plan that does not help those who need financial assistance and, instead, encourages the wealthy to join the new plan to qualify for another tax break, is not surprising. Ignoring human needs, morality, and focusing on the Almighty dollar has been the centerpiece of Republican orthodoxy for decades. What is truly surprising is the large number of Americans who support their agenda, those who continue to ignore it, and those incapable to understand the perversity of what most Republican congressmen, and the Trump administration, are doing.

    1. Eleanore Whitaker March 14, 2017

      When I was an accounting manager in two Fortune 50 companies, I saw the line item that is earmarked for political campaigns. First of all, that should be against the law to use corporate profits earned by employees and not CEOs to fund political campaigns for candidates with profits earned by employees who may not want to support the corporate choice of candidate.

      Second, the very fact that this generation of middle aged men are spiteful little punks who stop at nothing to get their way, is proof they have not reached sufficient maturity to be leaders of more than learning how to flush the toilet…with them in it.

      1. InformedVoter March 14, 2017

        My, my Elle, yet another fabricated personal history. This makes at least 7 or 8 different careers you supposedly have had. You’re as FAKE as the FAKE MSM is in making up “news”.
        You also forgot to mention that the majority of the estimated 14 who will “lose” their insurance are those who are presently forced to purchase health insurance. Now that President Trump, via an EO, has removed that requirement, these poor souls will not purchase the mandated insurance.
        So, the number actually “losing” health insurance is significantly lower than the so called 14 million.

        1. Dominick Vila March 14, 2017

          There is no evidence to substantiate your claim that 14 of the 20 million people that are benefiting from the ACA do so because they are being forced to have health insurance. Moreover, why do you find comfort in believing that a large number of fellow Americans who are paying for the portion of their insurance premiums not covered by government subsidies are suddenly going to find themselves relying entirely on government welfare…or ER freebies?

          1. InformedVoter March 14, 2017

            Do yourself a favor and do some fact checking. I know, it’s against your lefty principles, but you should try it.
            President Trump has already eliminated the penalty for not purchasing health insurance via an EO to the IRS.
            The premium subsidies, per obozocare, are to be reduced for the next several years. As the state’s can’t keep up with the escalating medical cost (remember obozocare was to stop the rise of medical care and insurance premiums – it was to return $2500 to each household!) the states would have removed millions from their medical rolls to contain their costs. So part of the so called 14 million would have lost their insurance under obozocare anyway.
            Millions only purchase insurance because they were “forced” to. These folks will drop out of the pool.
            Some common sense will quickly show that millions of the estimated 14 million will come from these two sources.
            Now add to that number those who were priced out of the insurance market because premiums have doubled in two years and insurance carriers have abandoned many regions.
            The whole crowd who would have dropped coverage keeps getting larger each year, under obozocare.

          2. Dominick Vila March 14, 2017

            Do yourself a favor and talk to some of the people enrolled in ACA sponsored healthcare plans. Most receive benefits that cover most of the cost of the premiums. Most can choose their own doctor and go to whichever hospital they wish. The cost of medical care in the USA has been increasing for many decades, and it has been the most expensive in the world for many, many, years. Suggesting that the increases in medical care in the USA are driven by the ACA, a program that helps about 7% of our population, is ludicrous.
            Unfortunately, I cannot continue this conversation. Having surgery tomorrow.

          3. sigrid28 March 14, 2017

            We will all be waiting to read your posts ASAP. Wishing you a rapid recovery and the best possible outcome.

          4. Dominick Vila March 15, 2017

            Thank you!

          5. ⚡️ I Am Helpy ⚡️ March 14, 2017

            “Fact check my lies yourself!!1”

            – you, a moron who is incapable of ever backing up any of their stupid claims.

          6. InformedVoter March 15, 2017

            Hey HELLpy, the Pathetic poster of lies and earner of the title “usually inaccurate”: I provided links that showed that President Trump was leading in the polls; that showed that the auto bailout lost $9.2 billion; that HilLIARy paid for FAKE polls, etc.
            You just scoffed that I was lying. But I was telling the truth and providing proof.
            You, meanwhile, continue to claim that Deb W-S did’t resign because of the leaked emails, that HilLIARy would win in a landslide, that the auto bailout made a profit.
            That is how you ended up with the label of “usually inaccurate” and I ended up with the label “distinguished contributor”.
            So now you’re going to deny that obozocare premiums are skyrocketing and that insurers are pulling out. Yet more contributions to your inaccurate posts.

          7. ⚡️ I Am Helpy ⚡️ March 15, 2017

            Uh huh. So still no quote, huh. Another gold star for me!

          8. InformedVoter March 17, 2017

            Hey HELLpy, the Pathetic poster of lies and earner of the title “usually inaccurate”: I see where you got destroyed by some of your fellow posters for making such a stupid post. Keep up the good work and your accuracy rate will fall below 10%.

          9. ⚡️ I Am Helpy ⚡️ March 17, 2017

            So still no quote, huh. Another gold star for me!

          10. ⚡️ I Am Helpy ⚡️ March 17, 2017

            Hey Nazi traitor! In between shouting at a javascript like a drooling idiot, can you link me to these imaginary awards and ratings of yours?

          11. Thoughtopsy March 14, 2017

            Like most ignorant Republicans, dumbassvoter believes that the Poor prefer the “freedom” of not knowing if they are going to be thrown into massive debt by their next health issue or hospital stay.

            You know… that heady feeling of walking the razor’s edge of medical poverty… knowing they could get a $50,000 bill for catching a disease they have no ability to avoid… is the ultimate freedom….

            Obviously this wonderful state of being has been ruthlessly curtailed by mean Democrats “forcing” them to get coverage.


        2. ⚡️ I Am Helpy ⚡️ March 14, 2017

          ^ This guy is so dumb he thinks he got a Special Award for Good Posting.

          1. InformedVoter March 15, 2017

            Hey HELLpy, the Pathetic poster of lies and earner of the title “usually inaccurate”: 12.67% accurate! Looks to me like you got another “thanks for participating” award vs. getting an award that was for actually accomplishing something positive.

          2. ⚡️ I Am Helpy ⚡️ March 15, 2017

            So still no quote, huh. Another gold star for me!

        3. sigrid28 March 14, 2017

          Either you are so wet-behind-the-ears that you never had even one sustained job yourself OR you are so long-in-the-tooth that you remember the days when a man worked his whole life for one company: Those days are gone. Most workers who have responsible positions in business (and the other professions) nowadays have worked for more than one business and have had to “multi-task”: take on varied responsibilities. And often both partners in a marriage have to work to make ends meet. Let’s not even get into the variety of competencies involved in running a household and raising children responsibly while working full-time. With your crude attempt at familiarity, you make a fool of yourself. And your math isn’t very good either.

          1. InformedVoter March 15, 2017

            Huh? No, I don’t believe that “Most workers who have responsible positions in business (and the other professions) nowadays have worked for more than one business and have had to “multi-task”: take on varied responsibilities.”
            Professionals have always had their share of job movement, but many stay their entire careers working for one company. So unless you’re talking about professional athletes, I do believe you are mistaken.
            But the real issue is that you attacked what I posted, yet you provided nothing but a personal attack against me. That would imply that what I posted is correct!
            Many who presently have health insurance, have seen their premiums double in two years. These folks are abandoning their expensive policies and opting for no coverage at all. Thus the 14 million who will no longer be insured include millions who have elected to drop their insurance. They will opt back in if they have a medical problem later.
            So, both partners having to work has nothing to do with what I posted, so what’s the point you’re trying to make?

          2. sigrid28 March 15, 2017

            Most people no longer stay in one job working their entire careers for one company–in the U.S. Maybe you are one of those trolls unfamiliar with employment practices in our country.

            You surely seem unfamiliar with health insurance coverage that has not doubled in two years: That’s just made up on your part.

            Your other math, attempting to discount the CBO statistics is also faulty. Some many words, so much empty noise.

          3. InformedVoter March 15, 2017

            You are so naive. Yes, the majority of folks saw their premiums increase by double-digits the past three years. Thus, in 2017 compared to 2014, they are paying almost DOUBLE. Not my figures, but the insurance industry’s.
            The CBO is one of the least reliable sources for estimating costs. They undercut the original obozocare because the Dems hid the numbers (or it would not have passed in the first place) and the CBO blew their calculations badly.
            For the new proposed health plan, they once more screwed up the numbers in their calculations.
            Yes, I do know what I’m talking about, do you? It certainly seems you don’t.

    2. dpaano March 20, 2017

      Dom….I’m sure they’ll suddenly “understand” it when they find out they are going to lose their healthcare totally based on this plan! To date, they haven’t quite figured this out, and it’s going to be a very bad blow to most of 45’s followers, especially those in the rural areas! Should be interesting…his confidence rating is already down to the 30’s and falling fast! 45 is so busy running back and forth to Mar-a-Lago and spending our hard-earned taxpayer money on Air Force One instead of staying in the Oval Office and doing his job! He’s got over 400 open positions that need to be filled…..why is he off playing golf again? Apparently, he’s not aware that being president is a 24/7 job!

      1. Dominick Vila March 20, 2017

        His 3-day weekends at Mar-a-Lago, and the fact that he spends much of the rest of the week campaigning, indicate that he does not understand the importance or the duties of the Office he holds.

        1. dpaano March 21, 2017

          I wonder how many people could be helped with healthcare with the money he’s already spent just flying back and forth to Mar-a-Lago each week! He doesn’t seem to understand that he has work to do in the Oval Office that he has FAILED to do! He has so many open positions that have not been filled, which causes problems with getting things done in our government! It galls me that my taxpayer money is paying for his weekly golfing trips, especially when it could go to someone’s healthcare that really needs it!

  8. RichFromShowMe March 14, 2017

    Thanks to Democrats in the Senate, the solution has to take several phases (3, so far) in order to correct obambacare.

    Evidently no one on this blog can wait to see how these Phases correct the current problem of mushrooming insurance costs for those who pay them?

    It will take a while to turn around the years of obambacare disaster and get the economy going again . . . . at least, longer than 50 days 🙂

    1. Eleanore Whitaker March 14, 2017

      Obamacare was a disaster? That the “keyword” borrowed from Trump the Liar in Chief? How is 14 million people being shoved off healthcare insurance NOT a disaster? I hope your scotum becomes cancerous. You men just never know when to shut your mouths.

      If Obamacare is so bad, why are 6 of the nation’s major agencies like AMA, AARP and American Hospital Association, who know more than the middle aged big mouth male bossy asses well ever know, say that the cost for hospital care will go through the roof?

      Prove what you post asshat.

        1. Eleanore Whitaker March 14, 2017

          You can’t admit you are wrong. Can you Mr. Knows All. Why in the hell would I fall for your Wall Street take on what I need for healthcare insurance. As I said, I hope you or one of your family members end up in the hospital and your ooochie coochie Wall Street money can’t cover the costs. I hope with the right karma, your mean spirited dog boy attitude gets what’s coming to you.

          1. RichFromShowMe March 14, 2017


            Such a vile thing to say to another person . . . i.e., “. . . family members end up in a hospital . “, but expected, by someone who ignores the FACTS!

            Can you read?

          2. Thoughtopsy March 14, 2017

            I’m afraid you’re going to have to post more than just random links, then bluster about people not understanding you.

            Explain how these links support your argument for Trumpcare.
            Or just f**k off.

            Either is fine.

          3. RichFromShowMe March 14, 2017

            The GAO could only “estimate” on Phase One of the new health bill.

            Phase Two and Three include Competition, allowing other type of health care outfits, like Co-ops where health care can run $50 a month and you only need catastrophic health insurance to cover health insurance needs; i.e., long term hospital stays, radical surgery, men don’t have to pay for procedures specific to women and vice versa, etc., etc.

            The reason Phases Two and Three are delayed is the Senate will filibuster and block anything that “radically changes” and existing bill; i.e, the concept of using Rational Thought, etc.

            The Senate Rules on “radical changes” is a moving target, but you can bet its a very serious hurdle to overcome. Cloture requires 60 votes, which those on the Right do not have.


          4. Thoughtopsy March 15, 2017

            Competition across states lines does not work in the three states that already allow it. It’s complete pie-in-the-sky.

            The GAO is correct to only rate Phase 1, because Phase 2 and 3 won’t pass.
            You see you don’t get to rate “Trumpcare” on all three parts. You get to rate it on the part that has a chance of making it into law. Or they have to sack-up and pass the entire thing as a single bill… and you KNOW that will never happen.

            Consider: Obama would have loved Single Payer… but he didn’t get to say “You have to rate Obamacare as awesome because Obamacare Phase 2 is Single Payer… that will solve all the problems in Phase 1… I’ll get Phase 2 passed, you know… one day soon.”

            The reason that the GOP can’t pass Phase 2 or 3 is that they have forced this through in partisan fashion after a record minimum period of design and consultation, and against the wishes of almost every group involved including doctors, hospitals and their own voters. And after reading it, it appears that whoever wrote it really didn’t spend very long trying to understand how health insurance actually works… they just applied random conservative principles to it without bothering to think the outcomes through, slapped a snazzy front page on it, and called it a healthcare bill.

            So they are going to force it through using reconciliation.

            I bet that’s going to make compromising to get 60 votes in order to pass anything else real easy…

            Especially since they’ve just poisoned the pool with a politically toxic reconciliation repeal & replace bill that gives the wealthy a massive tax break while kicking 27 million poor people off health insurance.

            Awwwww… poor darlings.

          5. RichFromShowMe March 16, 2017

            Those five states have only passed the legislation and insurance companies have been going out or changing their business plans for 7 years.

            The reason competition doesn’t work is it needs to be done on a national basis without obambacare “rules and regulations”
            in affect.

            Insurance companies really like their bottom line and the risk for these 5 states is too much to change their market approach.

            The GOP’s puny (YES, it is puny) health care plan, having to be done in 3 or more phases is ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY the lack of Democrat cooperation to save taxpayers from the drastically rising costs and other built in defects of obambacare.

            For the past 7 years planning for health insurance re-constitution had assumed a 60 vote plurality in the Senate and/or Democrat Senators crossing the barrier to save taxpayers from being gouged . . . this was a foolhardy idea!

            That’s why it requires the Ryan approach and may still fail as there are a few Republican Senators (McCain, Paul, SC Senator?, etc.) who may defect, which will probably return the Senate to Democrat control in 2018 or 2020.

            Republicans have proven to be unable to plan and/or execute their plans, so far.

            As for Single Payer health insurance, it really is a mess in Canada and Britain, for two examples. The reason it “sort of” works is because of lower overall health and drug costs.

            Open and Fair Competition will drive down those costs once our Federal Government “encourages” competition on insurance companies and healthcare providers in the same way it has done for all other services we purchase.

            You are never told the cost for healthcare, unless you ask, and then it may double because you required one more aspirin or you insurance will cover added/padded costs.

            The solution is open competition across the nation, where the buyer can walk away to any solution provider.

            Another complicating factor is the normally accepted policy, in the USA of, “no income” folks presenting themselves at the Emergency Room due to not taking care of their “problems” before they became life threatening.

            The hospital takes care of them knowing they will be paid little, or nothing, for their services. The great majority of these costs flow, and are factored into those who pay their bills, and then back to the insurance companies and ultimately to the folks who buy insurance coverage.

            Americans pay way too much for healthcare and drugs and Phase 3 will provide that solution.



          6. dpaano March 20, 2017

            You were doing fairly okay until your paragraph about “no income” people presenting themselves at the ER due to not taking care of their ‘problems.” How do you expect them to “take care of their problems,” if they don’t have the money to pay for insurance? Seriously, do you EVER read what you write? With the new healthcare plan, they won’t be able to afford insurance once again, and we’ll be stuck paying for their care in the ER’s by our higher hospital charges! You also seem to intimate that “poor people” are poor because they enjoy it! Things happen to people….even good people….that then cause them become poor! I can guarantee you that NO ONE wants to be poor! Of course, many of our politicians have NO idea what it’s like…..they have plenty of money!

          7. RichFromShowMe March 20, 2017

            Anyone who does not have health insurance can present themselves at any time to their County Hospital or VA (for vets) and receive “Preventive Care”, and usually also, at nearly any hospital, anywhere, or get a referral to a County facility.

            I was referring more at the unhealthy lifestyles (drugs, alcohol, etc.) which is rampant in low income areas of the nation and is the root cause of low income and health issues.

            Hospitals, like higher education, raises cost to meet whatever insurance or Student Loans will pay; i.e, serious lack of competition is the bottom cause.

          8. dpaano March 21, 2017

            So, with the proposed healthcare plan, you don’t see any problem with it taking away valuable programs that help drug abusers, etc. to get better? Additionally, going to a “county hospital” still costs the taxpayers money because it’s US who end up paying for these visits with higher costs when WE visit! As for the problems of high medical costs…..again, please see if you can find the TIME magazine article because it clearly spells out that the major problems with high costs is (1) the insurance companies; and (2) then, the hospitals. It all starts with the insurance companies!

          9. RichFromShowMe March 21, 2017

            Taxpayers, unfortunately, always pick up the costs as obmaba’s “money tree” (the Federal Reserves “Virtual Cash”) is out of business

            The best way to help drug abusers and those who have given up on finding a job is to help them get and keep a job, with training and new/appropriate job skills.

            I don’t have to look at the Time article as I fully agree with their (your) assumption.

            A similar “act” is being played out in the Education (college & university) business, but this time its Uncle Sam who has taken the place of the Insurance industry, either directly or indirectly by guaranteeing student loans.

            Tuition’s hinge on the price students pay, with education institutions raising their prices accordingly . . . . and Uncle Sam loaning the cash to pay the price, evidently forgetting to inform many students they need to get a marketable degree or that they need to pay the loan back.

            The USA has a Trillion+ dollar out in student loans with 10-20% now classified as bad debt (90-365 days in arrears, depending on which metric is used to measure bad debt – – reality usually works best 🙂

          10. Thoughtopsy March 21, 2017

            That’s right…. the best thing you can do for someone hooked on Heroin is to put them in a job….

            F**k you’re an idiot.
            Do you actually try to sound this stupid? Or do you make a habit of not looking into the thing you profess to understand?

            Have you bothered to understand what drug addiction is, or what is required in to order help fix it… BEFORE you can do anything else with that individual?

            “Give them a job”

            What a f**king moron.

          11. RichFromShowMe March 24, 2017

            YES Moron!

            I worked with homeless veterans for 15 years and after they get detoxed and “brought back to the world” the absolutely BEST thing that can be done is get them a job so they can build back their self esteem and become a contributing member of society . . . WHICH YOU SEEM NOT TO BE, Moron!

            You actually sound like the insensitive Morons who cause the problems; i.e., driving self esteem out of a person, MORON!

          12. dpaano March 20, 2017

            And maybe we women won’t have to pay for procedures “specific to men!!” How about that?! And maybe we won’t have to pay for your wife’s pregnancy or your IVF injections, etc. Why should we ALL have to pay for those? Quit being ridiculous!

          13. ⚡️ I Am Helpy ⚡️ March 14, 2017

            “You were mean to me, a delicate white nationalist, which somehow means your ability to accurately quote facts and numbers is no longer relevant”.

            Oh, traitor. When will you learn?

        2. Thoughtopsy March 14, 2017

          So it’s a disaster because it doesn’t cover everyone?
          Please try to argue logically. It avoids people mocking you for your stupidity.

        3. ⚡️ I Am Helpy ⚡️ March 14, 2017

          That 100% contradicts your earlier idiotic claims.

          I hope that helps!

          1. RichFromShowMe March 14, 2017

            I’ve finally decided trying to conduct rational thought with morons is a losing proposition.

          2. ⚡️ I Am Helpy ⚡️ March 14, 2017

            Wow, you only just worked out that you’re a moron? Was it not clear from day one?

          3. dpaano March 20, 2017

            Ditto…..back at ya!

    2. Thoughtopsy March 14, 2017

      The reason they are not waiting, pinhead, is that one of the major outcomes for the GOP with their insipid bill is a massive tax cut for the 1%.

      If they were serious about fixing anything, or providing more coverage, or providing coverage to more people, they would have left the tax in place that would provide the money for that extra coverage.

      If they were serious about reducing the deficit they would have left that tax in there to further reduce the deficit.

      Instead they gave themselves a massive tax break (hidden behind much AHCA Marketing) and took the axe to Medicaid as well. Reducing funding for that by massive amounts over the coming years.

      The end result is a disaster for the people that need the most help with coverage, consigning them back to “medical poverty” where a single hospital visit can bankrupt them and dump entire families into the street.

      Paul Ryan’s crowing about how this plan will eventually lower premiums below what the are today rings completely hollow given that reduction in premiums will mostly be due to old and sick people leaving the coverage pool due to being unable to afford coverage. This is the equivalent

      Given Ryan has an erection over slashing “entitlement spending” even further, and providing even more tax breaks to the wealthy, there is a ice cube’s chance in hell that “Phase 2” and “Phase 3” of the plan that the GOP don’t have producing better coverage, more coverage or cheaper coverage for the Americans who need it.

      You see the GOP Political Philosophy has been clear for some time:
      1) Give more money to the wealthy and corporations through tax breaks and corporate welfare.
      2) Raise costs and taxes on the middle class and poor to fund these tax breaks.
      3) Demean and demonize poor people for being the agents of their own poverty, and ignore their death and suffering because they obviously deserve it.
      4) Allow the free market to do whatever it wants… unless that’s unfair to a corporation, then make laws to protect that corporation from the “free” market.
      5) Dismantle Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security because they “redistribute wealth from the people who earned it and have a right to it, to the undeserving poor”.
      6) Lie about all the above to their voters, and blame as much of their hardship as possible on brown people, immigrants, LGBTQ people, and ISIS.

      So that is why your claim of “Trust them it will all be fixed later” is utter bullsh1t.

      And I’m not even going to bother with your assessment of Obamacare.

      If you’re too stupid to understand the essence of the cost/benefit analysis of Obamacare then either you’re an idiot, or the standards you’re using for defining a “disaster” are politically driven and vastly hypocritical…. given what “Phase 1” of Trumpcare is about to achieve.

      I’ll point out too, that to the people who are going to die between “Phase 1” and whatever other bullsh1t phases you’re pretending exist, is going to be cold comfort. More evidence that Republicans don’t give a sh1t about poor people. Just votes and tax breaks.

      I assume you have an adjective more extreme and evocative than “Disaster” for the AHCA outcomes of a 750% premium increase on sick seniors, and kicking 27 million people off health insurance?? Because… you know… if Obamacare is a “disaster” and Trumpcare is about to spike premiums, kill people, and increase the numbers of uninsured people to pre-Obamacare levels then I assume you have one ready.

      Or are you a political hack or paid astroturfer who stupidly argues that “Obamacare was a disaster, but, despite far worse outcomes, Trumpcare is not.”

      I’ll hold my breath.

      1. RichFromShowMe March 14, 2017

        I’m not following your circuitous reasoning, but it seems that you want to keep obambacare, continuing NOT insuring around 20 million Americans, continue adding 3/4+ trillion a year to our debt, drive even more health insurance companies out of the market, block competition and keep the economy suppressed with obamba’s draconian regulations.

        That’s what I get from most posts on this blog 🙂

        1. Thoughtopsy March 15, 2017

          The reason that is “what you’re getting” is that you fail at comprehending anything you read that does not agree with your pre-selected beliefs.

          Let’s try again, I’ll use really small words.

          – Obamacare is good. It allowed ~26 million people to get insurance. This comes at a cost.
          – Obamacare does not insure everyone because the Republicans rejected the Single Payer plan that would insure everyone. 20 million people remain uninsured.
          – Trumpcare is worse. It kicks those ~26 million off insurance, spikes premiums and deliberately starves Medicaid.
          – If Republicans gave a square sh1t about the debt, they wouldn’t have given themselves and their friends a massive tax break.

          Get it yet?

          Add to that: “Phase 2” and “Phase 3” are vapor-legislation. They have not been written yet. You have no idea what is in them. You just “believe” they are going to be “terrific”. They cannot pass the 60 vote threshold so will never occur. Phase 1 is all you get….

          As for the rest of your drivel… half-truths, lies, and misrepresentations.
          Insurance companies stay where the profit is. As soon as Republicans killed parts of the law that protected their profits and reduced their risk, some began to leave.

          Then when President Snowflake got elected on a platform of “Repealing and Replacing”, it added more Risk. So more left.
          TLDR: You can’t shoot someone several times in the chest then express surprise at them bleeding out.

          Suppressed economy, eh? Oh… you mean the one that’s been growing steadily despite GOP obstructionism? You mean all those jobs in Healthcare created by Obamacare?

          Block Competition? I’m guessing you mean across state lines? I assume you’re too stupid to note that three states allow that already…. and exactly zero health insurance companies from out of state have decided to offer any policies at all in any of those states due to both complexity and cost of setting up a network in another state.
          Yep I think you’re onto a winner there….

          Of course things may change if Federal Laws allow health insurance across ALL state lines. I predict that this will result in all the largest Health insurance companies reincorporating in the State with the fewest health insurance laws which I’m sure will create amazing health outcomes for Americans…. then one of them buying up all their competition until they eventually create a monopoly… or close to it a la Comcast/TimeWarner.
          Yep, another winner… you could make your Health Insurance as crappy as your internet…

          3-4 trillion a year? Oh dude. Conflation, poor definition, ignorance of how government pending and debt works…

          Try getting out more. And reading something other than Breitbart.

          I hope you get it this time… otherwise the next step will be crayons and a participation award.

    3. ⚡️ I Am Helpy ⚡️ March 14, 2017

      Right, we just need to give you several years and ignore all critical thinking to make sure the unworkable solution you have to a problem that doesn’t exist will be a success. Thanks for sharing, traitor.

    4. Steve Wood March 14, 2017

      Rich, the problem is nobody here believes there will be more than one phase. Dippy Don has told too many lies and put too many reactionaries in positions of power to do anyone any good. I’m sorry but waiting for benefits from people that want to dismantle government just isn’t a supportable line of play.

  9. ivory69690@yahoo.com March 14, 2017

    LIARS flock together the DONNY DUMP CLOWN & DRACULA look-a-like RYAN saying he would not defend or have any dealings with the DUMPSTER before he was Pres. ! but now he cuddles in bed with the CLOWN CAR DRIVER RYANS loves now ridding shoot gun in the CLOWN CAR ! TrumpDONTcare NOR DOSE RYAN The Numbers Don’t Add Up For The Poor wake the not 1 & 2 % of the rich greedy ones . its the other 98 % that have the power if you use your heads to help yourself and all the people of the country . the greedy rich don’t even need the crazy help Ryan and the gang of pinheads are trying to give them .seems and its said that the Ryan plan will kick millions off that plan and out of pocket cost for the plan double to triple for the one that don’t have the money in the first place . and the sad kicker is the savings go’s right to the 1 & 2 percent of the rich greedy ones that don’t even need the breaks . one thing if be it the 1 & 2 % was to be paying just a fair share of a percentage in taxes like every one else the government wouldn’t be in the BULL PLACE it is today (ALL THE GOP GANG OF PINHEADSDOING ) one has to wonder what’s wrong with the people in this country that keep putting these PINHEADS into office ? thy care nothing for the middle class just the small 1 & 2 percent

  10. ivory69690@yahoo.com March 14, 2017

    WAY TO GO (NOT )hello brain dead DONNY DUMP FOLLOWERS great work idiots The Trump foreign policy chaos is likely to accelerate centrifugal forces in the global system that will be the death-knell of American exceptionalism and leadership, hastening a rebalancing of global power with the United States as just another player << USA NOW HEADING TO THE BACK OF THE LINE BECAUSE OF ONE CLOWN DONNY DUMP[

    1. Steve Wood March 14, 2017

      very possible. but i don’t think he can manage it in 4 years and I’m hopeful he cannot lie his way to another term.

      1. ivory69690@yahoo.com March 15, 2017

        the strangest thing has already happened the DONNY DUMP CLOWN made it to a 1st term

      2. dpaano March 20, 2017

        Don’t count on that….he’s a pretty good liar! After all, it got him to the White House, and his followers STILL believe every word he tells them even when it’s proven time and time again to be wrong! Not sure what it’ll take for them to see the truth…..maybe when they see that they’re going to lose their healthcare, will NOT get their jobs back, and will end up poorer than they were to begin with!

  11. Eleanore Whitaker March 14, 2017

    It has already been reported by at least three financial experts that TrumpCare will force the loss of healthcare insurance on at least 14 million in 2018. By 2026, that number increases to 24 million. With no reduction in healthcare costs as Trump promised in his campaign.

    You have an extreme right wing in this country composed of hicks from the south and midwest who know these things and just don’t care In reality, these hicks are demanding Dem states support their lazy bum butts by paying for our healthcare AND theirs.

    How many more lies do we as a nation tolerate before we give these nuts what they really need: A Civil War.

    1. Steve Wood March 14, 2017

      Pardon me Eleanore, but their may be some hicks, but Trump/Bannonism is an old phenomenon. Look back to the late 1950s for the John Birch Society (try wikipedia). It still exists, but hasn’t had much influence as an organization since Reagan. But Bannon, Koch, etc and their supporters have the same beliefs, only updated to the present “threats”. The JBS saw communists everywhere trying to take down “American Values” from within. Today the threats are liberals, islam, and non-whites. Tomorrow it will be buddhists, hindus and whatever. *sigh* But don’t for a moment sell these people short on intelligence. I don’t understand what warps their perception of the world, but they’re not dumb. I know from experience. My dad was a bircher, a college grad., and a middle manager. He was also a racist, anticommunist, anti-liberal (read all liberals are communists or socialists), and radical free marketer. But, he benefited from government social programs, unemployment insurance, FHA, and GI Bill. My personal belief is that there is a deep seated but subtle paranoia in play among those who are rank and file. The country from the 50s through today has been changing. Advantaging the few and disadvantaging the many. Koch, Bannon, Trump, Ryan, McConnell have all done a remarkable job of selling the disadvantaged on the “benefits” of advantaging the few. Democrats, liberals, progressives, et al have done a horrible job of debunking the myths spread by radical Republicans.

      1. CPANY March 15, 2017

        Dear Dumbo:

        Your first line: It’s “there,” not “their.”

        1. Steve Wood March 15, 2017

          Sorry about the typo. I missed it in proof reading. You really should do something about all that hostility though. That’s the problem with the debate today.

  12. Eleanore Whitaker March 14, 2017

    Madoff was a big time Wall Street investment manager who managed to steal $67 BILLION from his own clients. But you have men like RichieBitchieRich who wants us to show HIM how TrumpCARE is the answer to Mom and Apple pie. Who the hell raised these morons?

    They want NO accountability for their actions even when those actions bankrupt others. Then, like Trump, they tell us, “It’s your fault for trusting me.” That was what Trump told the crowd of employees at his Taj Mahal here in NJ when they demanded he pay them the wages he owed them.

    RichieBitchiedRich Boy wants you to believe that it’s your fault for being poor, your fault for not having healthcare insurance even when your employer refused to cover his employees or for having a serious auto accident that leaves you needing continued healthcare. RichieBitchieRich Boy wants you to forget HOW HE got so well off.

    We all know his kind. They flip houses and leave the homeowners stuck with tens of thousands in unfinished work. Or, they play the stock market by using money from their clients as Madoff did to enrich themselves first.

    Or even worse, they stiff customers by price gouging so RichieBitchieRich Boys can afford a bull nosed pickup, a Porsche and a McMansion all on our tax dollars.

    Don’t wonder why they LOVE Trump. RichieBitchieRich Boys all wallow in mass corruption because their Daddies taught the how right wrong is.

    1. stcroixcarp March 14, 2017

      These guys are not morons, they are white collar thugs. But your question about who raised these sociopaths is relevant.

  13. latebloomingrandma March 14, 2017

    This Republican Bill should permanently put a stake in the heart of their party’s mantra that they are the party of family values, the US is a Christian nation, and that we are a nation of exceptionalism. They are small minded and mean spirited. The antithesis of the gospels and the Constitution.

    1. Thoughtopsy March 14, 2017

      Especially since the FIRST thing Trumpcare does is give them all a massive tax break.

  14. SunnyDune March 14, 2017

    RyanDoesn’tCare Healthcare
    TrumpDoesn’tCare Healthcare

    Both were born with silver spoons in their mouths, and could care less.

    ANYONE with any Common Sense would know that the CBO report is probably being “Kind”.

    1. Thoughtopsy March 14, 2017

      Politico reported that a leaked Internal White House analysis was quite a bit worse than the CBO’s “kinder” assessment.
      Translation: Trump either knows and doesn’t care, or doesn’t understand.
      No surprises there.


      1. ⚡️ I Am Helpy ⚡️ March 14, 2017

        Yeah, the WH internal report getting leaked is bad news for Trump.

      2. Steve Wood March 14, 2017

        It’s not that he knows and doesn’t care. He doesn’t accept something that doesn’t match his perception of reality. Ergo any analysis that says it’s not bigger, better, and cheaper simply isn’t true.

        1. Thoughtopsy March 15, 2017

          “Deluded” seemed a bit mean. But I agree it’s the most likely.

  15. Steve Wood March 14, 2017

    Ladies and gentlemen, I realize there’s a great deal of passion here, but just because we can post without consequence, mean spirited, insulting and/or vulgar posts doesn’t mean we should. Part of our existing problem as a nation is that we’ve thrown propriety, grammar and careful thought to the wind. In other words, political discourse has become rude, crude and vacuous. There are no ideas just talking points reduced to zero meaning by copying from TV sound bites. There was a great company, which had as there motto one word…”THINK”. I exhort all of you to think before you type.

    1. CPANY March 15, 2017

      IBM, which gave out desk ornaments with THINK on them, is still is business.

    2. Thoughtopsy March 15, 2017

      Partially disagree.

      Falling education standards, deliberate strategies of News “siloing”, and planned Republican political strategy around hate, fear and racism have combined to produce a core group of people who:
      – Do not believe facts.
      – Hate you simply for existing (especially if you’re black).
      – Are Racist, Bigoted, and/or Misogynist.
      – Are unwilling or unable to employ critical thinking.
      – Revere “The Constitution” as a symbol and a weapon, but have never read it, and have not bothered to understand it.
      – Revere “The Bible” as a symbol and a weapon, but have not bothered to understand it.
      – Have been taught that all of their problems are other people’s fault… especially brown skinned people and immigrants.
      – Have been taught that the only honest sources of information are extreme right wing sources of information.
      – Consider what they FEEL as more valid than what is factual or real. They literally consider their opinion more real than any fact.
      – Dismiss knowledge and science, revere their own “holy ignorance”, and look down on anyone educated as disgusting or evil.
      – Are desperate for a father figure and gullible because of that… they will believe anything a supposed strong man tells them… even when he contradicts himself.
      – Are pining for “Making America Great Again” without anyone defining what that actually means, other than a delusional nostalgia for a return to a golden age that never really existed, and in terms of history was incredibly racist and horrible for large sectors of the population that were not white.
      – Strongly feel that it’s acceptable for the President of the United States to be a guy who self-confessed to grabbing women by the genitals whenever he feels like it, walking in on teen-aged beauty pageant contestants while they were naked, and has made wildly inappropriate comments about young girls including his own daughter.

      These people… by the look of it, about half of Trump’s voter base… cannot be reached with reasoning.
      You can engage them in polite argument but once you point out any obvious flaw in their Orange God they will say some variation of “nothing you say can change my mind” and then tell you to “go f**k yourself”.

      Luckily about half of them held their noses when voting, are not completely this way, and may still be able to be reached with facts and reason. The rest won’t listen and don’t care what you think. They are only here to proselytize for Cheeto Jesus…

      My policy is to argue politely with anyone who will argue politely with me as long as they adhere to reasonable rules of argument.

      The minute someone descends into diversion, illogic, distraction, failure to answer any points, obvious fallacies, and ad hominem attacks, then they still get argued with, but they also get a side order of derision for their ignorant, or tactical, stupidity.

      Because they have shown that they don’t “THINK”.
      They have shown that they prefer not to “THINK”.
      They have shown that, even when presented with an opportunity, they refuse to “THINK”.

      But despite this… ironically… they feel that it’s still critically important to share their idiocy with all of us.

      Have a read through the tiresome lies, stupidity and avoidance openly displayed by “mike” and “itsfun” and “InformedVoter” for a few articles and see exactly what I mean. They remain small-minded, arrogantly ignorant, self-deluded Trumptards who bend every narrative, fact or argument to fit the way they FEEL the world should be… and when that doesn’t work, create a few straw men, knock them down, divert to another topic, ignore any points you made, and spatter everything with ad hominem attacks.

      So… I respectfully disagree that mean-spirited, insulting and vulgar posts aren’t both useful and appropriate as tools for certain individuals.

      I agree that one should always begin communication by extending the benefit of the doubt, and attempt to create a polite and positive interaction with an aim to acknowledge, understand and educate.

      However If you continue that in the face of deliberate sabotage, willful and intransigent ignorance, trolling and personal attacks you cede respectability, false equivalence and more and more forum space to people who are just really trying to cr@p in your pool… (Most likely seeking some sort of angry, masochistic validation)

      If you’d like to coddle these people as if they are capable of growing or learning, I have no problem with that. You’re entitled to believe they can be reached.

      However I’m highly likely to passionately point out their recurring idiocy in some vulgar way, because I recognize that the worst “idiots for Trump” are not capable of change. They have already deliberately closed off all pathways for that change to occur.

      1. Steve Wood March 16, 2017

        I agree with almost all of your analysis. I think and it’s only an opinion that Trump’s base is much smaller than the sum of those who voted for him. Clinton was the wrong candidate at the wrong time against the wrong opponent. Frankly I believe Clinton would have won easily in 2008, and Obama would have destroyed Trump in 2016 (he would have carried no baggage to attack). My point is that when we use rude pejoratives, or mimic their crudeness, then we lose the high ground and the independents who when asked on policy, generally agree with progressives. You fight serial, pathological liars by confronting them constantly with the truth.You ignore the messianic followers because they’re unchangeable and can only drag you down to their level. Thus alienating the people you need to reduce them to irrelevancy.

        Thanks. I appreciate the well detailed, articulate reply.

  16. CPANY March 15, 2017

    Both Trump and Ryan appear to be silent in the picture that accompanies this article which, by the way, is one of the best criticisms of the elitist American rich that I’ve read in a long time. They seem to be just staring at each other with pouting faces.

    Maybe one of them just blew a fart.

  17. dpaano March 20, 2017

    What the Republicans don’t seem to realize is that many of those people who haven’t purchased healthcare because of the cost are the SAME people who are paying for THEIR healthcare! Why are we being made to pay for healthcare for our Congress, our Senate, and our House when they are mostly millionaires who can afford to purchase their OWN healthcare? Has anyone ever wondered about that question?
    Additionally, if the young people would have purchased healthcare through the ACA, it would have grown as President Obama thought it would. However, the young people of our nation seem to think that: (a) they’re immortal and will NEVER have an accident requiring them to be in a hospital for any length of time; (b) they would rather spend their money on those new IPhones (have you EVER seen a homeless person or an elderly person standing in line waiting to purchase the newest model?); and (c) our young people are paying an arm and a leg for education and can’t afford a single dollar for healthcare — why do you think most of them are living at home?
    For these two senators to make the comments that they made is ludicrous! They shouldn’t have even had to “walk them back.” This goes to show how uninformed our current GOP politicians are, especially since they live in the clouds way above most of us! If they had to walk in our shoes for a week….they might see the ridiculousness of their comments!


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