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Kalamazoo Gun Rampage Completely Ignored

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Kalamazoo Gun Rampage Completely Ignored


This article originally appeared on Media Matters.

Police say Jason Dalton began his killing spree at 5:42 p.m. when the Uber driver from Kalamazoo, Michigan, shot a woman multiple times as she stood in the parking lot of her apartment complex on Saturday night. More than four hours later, Dalton killed a father and son as they looked at cars at a local dealership. Then just fifteen minutes later, Dalton opened fire on two parked cars at a Cracker Barrel restaurant, killing four women.

When police apprehended Dalton at 12:45 a.m., they found a semi-automatic handgun in the car. According toThe New York Times, a neighbor said Dalton “used guns in a troubling manner,” including occasionally firing off rounds out of the back door of his house.

In all, six people were killed and two were injured in the Kalamazoo County gun rampage. Police are still searching for a motive in what they’re describing as random killings that terrorized the city for seven hours.

Coming in the wake of other recent shooting sprees across America, including deadly attacks in a church in Charleston, SC, a community college in Oregon, and at a government center in San Bernardino, CA, which was later deemed a terrorist attack, the Kalamazoo killings fit into a uniquely American pattern of gun rampages.

In response, President Obama for years has tried to pass new legislation to address the issue of gun safety, but has been blocked at every turn by Republicans and their supporters at the National Rifle Association. So not only is gun violence an issue of health and public safety, it’s also a pressing issue for political debate.

But yesterday, the Sunday morning talk shows all passed on the Kalamazoo story and the topic of gun violence in America. On ABC’s This WeekCBS’s Face The NationCNN’s State of the UnionFox News Sunday, andNBC’s Meet The Press, not a single reference was made to the Michigan shooting spree, according to Nexis.

That’s five hours of programming from shows that ostensibly address the week’s most pressing issues in America, and yet no discussion of the country’s latest killing spree, or what public officials should do to address the problem of gun violence.

If the alleged Kalamazoo shooter had been a Muslim, would the Sunday shows have all ignored the killings?

Note that the programs yesterday were flooded with a combined 19 interviews with presidential candidates, who are precisely the type of people who should be asked about gun violence and what their plans are, if any, to deal with this public health crisis.

Instead, the Sunday shows this week were focused largely on the presidential campaign season and the minutiae surrounding the various strategies for the candidates. For instance, there were dozens of references on theSunday shows to polls and polling yesterday, but not a single reference to the Kalamazoo killing spree or the topic of gun violence.

Time and again we’ve seen how partisan pursuits by the press trump the issue of gun violence. Remember last year when CBS sat down with Obama for a one-on-one 60 Minutes interview and CBS ended up editing out of the telecast questions about gun violence in order to make room for questions about Hillary Clinton’s emails?

And too often during the primary season debates we’ve seen media moderators not press candidates about guns. That, despite the fact that more than 30,000 Americans die each year from guns. (More than 1.5 millionhave died since 1968.) Another 70,000 Americans are wounded by guns annually. And gunshot injuries cripple our health care system under the strain of nearly $2 billion in hospital costs each year. (Overall, aninvestigation by Mother Jones magazine found gun violence has a direct cost of $8.2 billion each year with $229 billion in additional indirect costs annually.)

If ever there were a time the press and the Sunday shows ought to be addressing the deadly topic of guns, it’s now, in the wake of another rampage and during the an election year when candidates are addressing America’s future.

Stop dodging the issue.



  1. Paul Bass February 22, 2016

    Of course they are dodging the issue, when one party is paid for by the NRA, and that party owns the media, unless, he was Muslim, we won’t hear about it.

    1. itsfun February 23, 2016

      Just amazing how you can make murder by a crazed person a racial issue.

      1. Paul Bass February 23, 2016

        Nothing racial about it, except for reporting by Fox, it is about the NRA having control of the GOP party. Get a clue, if you are going to troll effectively…

  2. Otto Greif February 22, 2016

    It’s funny you think talking about gun control helps Democrats.

    1. Insinnergy February 22, 2016

      All I hear is more pee on the wall, sad troll.

    2. bobnstuff February 23, 2016

      That’s only because it show that the Democrats are paying attention. The republican keep saying that there is not problem other then the fact that we don’t have enough guns. Republicans like to create problems to solve instead of trying to solve the real ones. Why in a republican held congress do we not have reform bills for the VA, tax code, immigration, health care, the waste in military spending, election reform, protection for voters right, and better water safety standards? These are all problems that are real and need dealing with but instead we have the best post office name congress in history.

    3. jmprint February 23, 2016

      No it helps society as a whole.

  3. Insinnergy February 22, 2016

    If the shooter isn’t black or muslim the baying news media don’t really care.
    Truth, facts or information are all less important now than eyeballs, clicks and promoting narratives easily understood by stupid people. (I’m looking at you GOP base).

    1. ray February 22, 2016

      I think that says all there is to say about Otto.

  4. charleo1 February 22, 2016

    The thing about terrorism vs. just another nut with a semi-automatic, cutting innocent people down at random. Is terrorism is so much more sexy, intriguing, dark, and mysterious. Plus, with terrorism comes the added benefit for some of being just a darn excellent time to be as bigoted, xenophobic, nativist, nationalist, and self righteous about the whole thing as they want to be. Not that some exactly need an excuse lately, in case we haven’t noticed.

  5. stcroixcarp February 23, 2016

    This is the first article I have seen that points out the cost of gun violence. If the loss of human life isn’t enough to trigger (pun intended) some gun law reforms, loss of money and the strain on our tax dollars is.

    1. bobnstuff February 23, 2016

      Mother Jones has been collecting data for a while now and has one of the only real sources of gun violence information.

    2. DEFENDER88 February 23, 2016

      See how this works now:
      How you now juxtapose/Substitute – Gun “Deaths”(30,000) with Gun “Violence” (3,000), exactly the Dishonest Distortion/Deception the Gun Control Agenda uses.

  6. FireBaron February 23, 2016

    Black guy shoots one person defending his house or family from a home invader – He’s a Terrorist! He’s an anti-government radical! He’s a junkie! He’s a career felon!

    White guy shoot at least 8 people and kills six – Huh?

    1. itsfun February 23, 2016

      Amazing how some people can play the race card over every thing.

      1. jmprint February 23, 2016

        You do it all the time.

        1. itsfun February 23, 2016

          Nope, never do that.

  7. David February 23, 2016

    The writer of this article talks about 30,000 plus killed by “gun violence”. Doesn’t tell us that over 23,000 were suicides. There are sick people out there. I want to be able to defend myself and my family. Go live in the Vatican if you want to be “safe”.

    1. stcroixcarp February 23, 2016

      The fact that there were 23,000 suicides by gun should send up huge red flags. Guns are the vectors of death, and are a public health threat. How can our country ignore 30,000 gun caused deaths? Remember the public panic over ebola and now zitka virus? Or bird flu or SARS? Can you imagine the public response in Kalamazoo if 6 people had died on Saturday from E.coli?

      1. David February 23, 2016

        The guns caused those deaths? Really? Foolish me. Here I was thinking it was the person using the gun that caused death. Silly me!

        1. jmprint February 23, 2016

          No it was the bullets that did the killing, the sick person only pulled the trigger.

        2. stcroixcarp February 23, 2016

          Yes, David, you are silly. A person without a gun cannot kill with a gun. Just like I can’t stab you to death with a snowflake. Guns were designed and manufactured to be lethal weapons. The fact that 30,000 people lost their lives because a gun was used for the purpose that it was intended, really needs some consideration. Or are you okay with that kind of carnage? I am not!

          1. 1standlastword February 23, 2016

            Why use a gun when a rope is cheaper! It’s much easier to stop criminals with guns and intent to kill than it is a person who want to kill himself: 23k is a lot of proof here

            The bare truth is gun laws don’t work for the lawless

          2. Paul Bass February 23, 2016

            You don’t think that if some of those 23,000 suicides MIGHT NOT HAVE OCCURRED if they didn’t have a gun?

            It hurts a lot more to kill yourself with a knife, I’m sure many would not succeed if they didn’t have a gun.

            So you might at least agree, crazy, or suicidal people should not have guns?

          3. 1standlastword February 23, 2016

            Of course mentally ill and people shouldn’t have access to lethal force. However, in my line of work I know of many mentally ill that didn’t have lethal force who terminated their life with ropes, prescribed medication and jumping off buildings. It really doesn’t matter the method when a person is in the “eye of the hurricane” and suffering existential despair there is nothing anyone can do to stop them. In fact–we have evidence, that people are at greater risk after a hospitalization: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/07/140715214211.htm

            Paul, there is too much ignorance about guns in our media. The reason anti-gunners can’t get traction is not the NRA…that is a illusion! They don’t get traction because they use tragedy and scare tactics to line up voters; one side against the other.

            It actually diminishes the credibility of the anti-gunner argument to add suicides to the stats because suicide is not a crime.

          4. Paul Bass February 24, 2016

            I have an autistic young adult son, unlike Adam Lanza (sp?) mom, I and every other ASD parent I know would not even THINK of teaching our children to handle firearms, nothing good can come of it. Thank you.

          5. David February 23, 2016

            “A person without a gun cannot kill with a gun.” Such insight! Would that be like, “A person without a rattlesnake cannot kill with a rattlesnake.”? Over 32,000 people died in automobile accidents in 2014. Are you okay with that kind of carnage? What about medical errors? Over 195,000 died in 2013 from medical errors. Are you okay with that kind of carnage? National Vital Statistics Report
            Maybe you should do like they are starting to do in England. Turn in all sharp knives! You know that those sharp knives cut people! Those darn inanimate objects! Can’t they just be still? Why don’t we all find a ‘safe place’ to stick our heads in while the world goes on!

          6. bobnstuff February 23, 2016

            The auto manufactures with the government has cut the death in car accidents by over half in the last twenty years. Every year cars get safer, can you say the same about guns. Hospitals have just started a new system to try to reduce the deaths from medical errors, because when someone dies they get sued. Does the gun industry get sued because they don’t make the safest gun they can?

          7. David February 23, 2016

            Actually, I can say that the crime rate has dropped dramatically over the last 20 years — probably, because of the expansion of concealed carry laws. I assume that the number of accidental death/injury from firearms is not all that large. Most deaths/injury are intentional not accidental.

          8. Paul Bass February 23, 2016

            David, you are an idiot.

            The drop in gun crime AND ALL violent crime in general in America, has been well documented to be linked to the LACK of lead in the environment. This lead removal was due to the removal of lead in gasoline and in paint. Crime has steadily decreased due to this ONE improvement in our health.

            The increase in guns in the American environment has only lead (pun intended) to more suicides by guns. NOT to the drop in crime rate.

          9. David February 24, 2016

            There are some studies linking the decline in lead in the environment to the reduction in the crime rate. That would suggest that it isn’t the guns that are causing the crime.

          10. Paul Bass February 24, 2016

            Exactly right, yes, obviously not “guns” but people.

            However remove guns from people WHO DON’T HAVE ANY BUSINESS having them in the first place (suicidal or psychopaths, for instance) would be a great idea.

          11. David February 24, 2016

            I am in total agreement with removal of guns from those who should not have them. This would include: Felons; those with demonstrated suicidal intentions; and, psychopaths. Agreed: Great idea!

          12. bobnstuff February 23, 2016

            Guns and the crime rate have little to do with each other, the more guns you have the more gun deaths you have. If anything as gun ownership in this country went up over the last 50 years so has the crime rate.

          13. David February 23, 2016

            That is not true. See, FBI Crime Report which shows the decline in the crime rate while the ownership of firearms has increased.

          14. bobnstuff February 23, 2016

            Gun ownership declined starting in the 90’s and didn’t pick up until the last few years. In the 90’s people own guns for hunting and the young people were not following in Dad’s foot steps. The industry needed a new angle and home defense became their battle cry. It wasn’t till 2014 that ownership reached the level it had been in 1993.

          15. David February 24, 2016

            According to the Gallup poll, you are right as to the % of households and people “self reporting” gun ownership.

          16. bobnstuff February 24, 2016

            I read an article back in the 90’s in one of the gun magazines about the decline in sons hunting, the next gen wanted nothing to do with hunting and that the gun industry was feeling it. When I was young most of the guns around were for hunting. I still remember the first time I saw a semi automatic M1. I still want one but I have no earthly use for it. Back then they were cheap, but not now. The gun industry want us to feel unsafe, it’s marketing. You loose one market you create another.

          17. David February 24, 2016

            The M1 is a neat rifle. Underpowered at .30 caliber, but short and handy. Now the M1A….!

          18. bobnstuff February 24, 2016

            The gun belonged to a friend and the first time shot it I had a group I could cover with a half dollar at 75 ft. Most of my shooting is done with a 30.06 or a 9mm although I still like my 22 because of the cost. Just for fun I use my brother 93 caliber flintlock, three and a half oz. ball. It’s like a hand held cannon. .

          19. David February 24, 2016

            93 caliber flintlock! Whoa!!! You are right. That is a cannon ball being fired! 3 1/2 ounces? Compare that to 157 grain which is standard for a .308 battle rifle. My guess is you don’t go the range and pop off a couple of hundred rounds with that baby!
            I shoot a Colt AR-15 HBAR which has been modified. My carry weapon is a Glock 17. I love .45 acp but, 18 rounds of 9mm is hard to beat!

          20. bobnstuff February 24, 2016

            I don’t do hand guns, I have never been any good with them. We do have a 68 caliber tower pistol that’s fun but I can’t hit anything with it. I don’t shot much anymore because the hillside I used now has a house on it and I don’t think shooting at it would go over well. Now I have to get into my van and drive somewhere. I switched over to a bow, I’m teaching my grandson how to shot one, I like the price. Can you tell me why .22 shells are so hard to find? This summer I plan to take my oldest grandson out and get him started but I only have a few boxes of bullets and hate to waste them.

          21. DEFENDER88 February 25, 2016

            After Sandy Hook, everyone went out and bought a 22. Also 22 is not as profitable as the larger calibers.
            Check out Sportsmans Guide – they usually have 22 available(prices vary widely).

          22. David February 25, 2016

            I shoot a PSE compound. You? Ammunition was very scarce recently because the Federal Govt bought 5 billion — ‘b’illion with a ‘b’ — rounds of ammo and the mfgrs were sold out. Now, more profit in center fire ammo so they aren’t producing much .22 having to meet the Govt demand.

          23. DEFENDER88 February 23, 2016

            Your info is just simply wrong.
            ” If anything as gun ownership in this country went up over the last 50 years so has the crime rate.” – uhhh – Wrong. Check your “facts”. Check the FBI Figures. Actually crime rate has fallen as gun ownership has risen. Whether the 2 can be linked is arguable, but the it “is” true.

          24. DEFENDER88 February 23, 2016

            Hospitals get sued because some “person” screwed up.
            If a drunk driver kills someone, the drunk is held responsible, not the car.
            Lets get really Progressive and remove personal responsibility for any and all actions no matter how reckless and deadly – especially murder.
            Blame the car, the gun, the knife, the hammer.
            Guns are as safe as a car if you are trained and know how to use it safely.
            ps Guns “are” being designed and made safer than in the past.
            “People” and “their actions” don’t seem to be.

          25. bobnstuff February 23, 2016

            If I want to drive a car I must pass a test and have insurance, If I want to by a gun I need ID and to maybe pass a back ground check. . If my car kills someone they will know it’s my car. I my gun kills someone there is a less then 10% chance anyone will know I own that gun. If I loose my gun there really is no good way to track it, if my car goes missing it is hard for someone to sell it on the street. When I’m not safe to drive my license can be taken away. I don’t blame the gun, I blame the gun owner and the people who sell the guns. I also blame the media for making people think a gun will make them safer. If you have a gun you are four times more likely to be shot. Now tell me how guns make us safer.

          26. DEFENDER88 February 23, 2016

            Your fundamental info and data on guns is mostly incorrect.
            And as opposed to “A gun “will” make you safer” the term should be a gun “Can” make you safer. If you do it right.
            Guns make “ME” safer because I am trained in the safe handling, storage and use thereof.
            And they have saved my life at least twice now – that I can document.
            And I no longer have to depend on luck to get me out of dangerous situations brought on by A*s Hole Thugs who would just as soon kill me and those with me. Which I am all too familiar with.
            Also I “Have” used my gun to diffuse a bad situation and avoid others being brutalized, more than once, and not a shot fired. As have other gun owners I know. It happens all the time, but does not make news.
            Amazing how quickly the Chicken S*its back down when faced with a gun and someone they know who is determined.
            Also – If you are found unsafe to operate a gun or don’t conform to the rules you can also have your license revoked.
            If you buy a gun, like we honest gun owners, you must pass a background check and the gun is registered with the FBI with a fired bullet.
            One thing I would add to Permit Requirements is a Mental Health test/check. But Privacy laws(HIPPA) currently restrict this. Although our state does some checking as they can. Including you cannot get a permit if you just have a case “filed” for Domestic Abuse(Guilty or not).

          27. bobnstuff February 23, 2016

            I own two guns and have never had a back ground check because they didn’t come from gun shops, My brother has at least 25 guns and as far as I know he has never had a back ground check, most were bought at gun shows or he traded for them and at least ten of those guns he built himself. The young man down the road had two fully automatic rifles and most of his family are felons, they don’t live there now because they are in jail, thank God.. They had the semi automatic made fully buy a nice young lady across the street who is a gun smith. There is a person that I know who hears voices but he and his wife have matching AK 47’s. I’m an honest person and know how to shot and how to store my guns so no one but me can shot them but I’m not foolish enough to believe I need a gun to keep me safe.

          28. DEFENDER88 February 23, 2016

            Good for you.
            Glad you have not actually had people trying to kill you with a gun.
            But I would probably be telling someone about a person who “hears voices” and owns an AK or any gun.
            Mental cases(if that is true here) should not own guns or even have access.
            Felons with full autos – I would have been inclined to turn them in.
            Not legal here. And dangerous.
            If you have not had good serious training in real gun safety, the law, shooting etc – I highly recommend it. Get a permit if possible.
            I am talking “State Certified Instructor”, permit class, etc.

          29. bobnstuff February 23, 2016

            My big brother is an instructor and has even written some articles for one of the gun magazines but it was my dad that taught me gun safety, he was an ordnance officer in the Army Air Corp. I grow up with dummy 50 caliber shells in my toy box. Since I have long guns I need no permit except to hunt and I don’t do that much anymore. The young man with the semi will be in jail for a long time, We kind of helped him get caught on other charges and he got five to ten.

          30. DEFENDER88 February 23, 2016

            Good for you helping get him “off the street”. There are people who should not have guns, sounds like he was one of them.
            I still recommend you take a permit class – especially if (like our state) it includes sessions on the law and what you can and cannot do – legally. Usually done by Law Enforcement psnl.

          31. bobnstuff February 23, 2016

            An AK 47 is a 1947 design, I can buy a brand new Winchester 93 and I have been shopping for a 12 gauge double barreled open hammered shot gun and can get one that is the same as has been made for over a hundred years only the new one is badly made in China, Tell me again about guns being made safer. I sure can’t by a car was designed in 47, not that I would want to. Gun safety is a joke. There is a way to make a gun owner only but the NRA has been fighting that tooth and nail.

          32. stcroixcarp February 23, 2016

            How about requiring liability insurance on your guns? Then you can take personal responsibility for your gun related behavior without bankrupting your family?

          33. DEFENDER88 February 23, 2016

            “I” do carry Liability Insurance on my potential use of a gun.
            But I depend on my training and temperament to not require the use of it. I don’t ever “want” to have to shoot “anyone”.
            Training that includes Conflict Avoidance.
            We have a saying:
            “The best gun fight you can be in is the one you avoid”

          34. bobnstuff February 23, 2016

            You sound like the type of person who understand what a gun is and how to use them, the type of person who should own a gun but here is the question, how do we keep the drug dealers and nut jobs from getting guns. The only open carry I have seen was a guy in what looked like PJ’s with little ducks on them. I don’t think he was playing with a full deck. I made it a point to head the other way from were he was going. The inner city is becoming a war zone, how do we stop the killing. All those guns must come from somewhere and I’m pretty sure they were not bought legally. How do we stop the carnage?

          35. DEFENDER88 February 23, 2016

            Now you are talking.
            Stopping the carnage – that is the issue.
            “I” think there are some things that can be done that will help.
            Difficult but still possible.
            But some things will take major shifts in how this country is run.
            First the Liberal plan to ban guns etc will only hurt people like me and actually make things worse.
            Some of the major issues are:
            1 – Mass Murders
            2 – Every-day killing in the cities, mostly Drug related crime, mostly Black on Black.

            1 – Mass Murders
            This is a “relatively” new problem.
            I am old enough to remember 1/2 the pickup trucks parked in the lot had a gun in the window on a rack.
            The 60’s – I could have brought a gun into school and no one would have been alarmed. Curious but not alarmed.
            In the schools it started, roughly, in the late 1970’s.
            Coincidentally around the same time we emptied the mental institutions and started treating young men on Psychotropic Drugs instead of keeping them in Institutions where they could do no harm. Now they are given Drugs and sent home, then go crazy and back to school and kill all they can. This also coincides with the greatest Suicide rate of our returning war Vets – yup – they are now treated with the same psychotropic drugs and sent home.
            Red Lake(School Shooing) – Prozac
            Columbine – Zoloft, Luvox
            El Cahon Calif – Effexor
            Sandy Hook – Adam Lanza – on drug but unknown which one
            Aurora Theater – killer on drug but unknown which one
            Many more.

            I think I see a pattern here ? Duh.
            So I say – The mental health system needs to re-consider how these cases are handled – ie Fix It.
            It will take Govt action and laws to control “Big Pharma”.
            Too much money/profit involved.

            2 – Every day inner city Gang killing
            Again drug related but in a very different way.
            I say, especially young Black kids face the probability of not being able to make money honestly so they turn to the drug trade. These inner-city gang killings are driving the gun crime rates nation wide.
            I have no easy answers or proposals to stop this.
            If I were in power, I would just legalize all drugs except the psychotropics which drive people to kill.
            That would cut the throat of the Cartels and stop the Drug Gang wars. But what then to do with young inner city men who can no longer make a living on the drug trade – its a big problem.

          36. bobnstuff February 23, 2016

            I agree with what you are saying. If drugs were legal you would end much of the violence in both our country and in Mexico. Most of those drug have only been illegal for less then a hundred years. The real problem is poverty and hopelessness. I wish I know how to solve that one.

            Our doctors have become drug dealers, got a problem pop a pill. It’s not new, every kid in my high school know which doctor wold give you drugs if you said the right thing. That was in the 60’s. I don’t know when the fear factor kicked in, I always carried a knife in my pocket, still do and I had a truck with a gun rack, it had an umbrella in it most of the time, even then my gun was locked up unless I was going shooting. If two kids had a problem they didn’t get a gun they duked it out after school. No one died. Half the house in my neighborhood had guns but I can’t think of anyone that used them in anger.

            Now people live in fear. I for one refuse to let fear run my life. I have delivered pizzas in some pretty rough neighborhood and only had problem twice and both time if I had a gun it would have been stolen. I was safe as long as I stayed in my delivery area, I had protection that the police couldn’t have given, The biggest meanest drug dealers in the area were my customer and know that if anything happened to my drivers he would never get another pizza delivered. I think if anyone touched us the would be very sorry. Sometimes it not the gun you carry but who you know that keeps you safe.

          37. DEFENDER88 February 23, 2016

            As a retired Engineer, I still tend to look at problems with Root Cause Analysis techniques.
            ie What is really causing the problem at a fundamental level ?
            The Root Causes here seem to me to be much more drug related than gun related.

            Also, I grew up in the mountains, everyone (and I mean Everyone) carried a gun. If you did not have a gun people would say – He is strange, what the F*ck is wrong with him:) He must be from the city.
            But no-one ever got shot.
            I find several in here who say “I don’t want to live in a world full of guns, with everyone shooting everyone else in the street”.
            I found the reverse to be true.
            I found:
            Like “Good fences make good neighbors”.
            Everyone armed made for good neighbors.
            Of course with the inner city drug trade it is different.

          38. David February 24, 2016

            An armed society is a polite society. What a great quote!

          39. bobnstuff February 24, 2016

            An armed society is one living in fear. A polite society needs no guns.

          40. David February 24, 2016

            I am not afraid! Concerned, yes. But, not afraid.

          41. bobnstuff February 24, 2016

            It’s a very thin line between concerned and afraid.

          42. David February 24, 2016


          43. bobnstuff February 24, 2016

            I live in what’s left of farm country and yes most people have guns but you never see them except for hunting season. Every years on Thanksgiving afternoon it sounds like a war zone with people sighting in the deer riffles. You didn’t need a gun because of your neighbor you know them and you worked with them. You don’t fight with your neighbor because if you did there would be one less person when it came time to bring in the hay or many other tasks that you helped each other with. It’s call community, the old timers know that they could depend on each other. Even today when most of the cows have been replaced with houses and no one raise chickens but we have sheep and alpacas we still know that in times of trouble we can count on our neighbors. Two years ago my grandson ran away, with in twenty minutes I had thirty guy in my driveway to go looking for him. When my son’s car went down the guy across the street drove him to work for months. We have had some new people move on to our road over the years and some didn’t understand how things worked but most discovered what a farm community is all about. One poor lady never did quit understand. I remember the day the put cow manure on the field across from her house. I thought she was going to have a stroke. Last year I took a photo of five tractors all lined up getting ready to bail hay. There were some I know for a fact that were 80 years old and one shiny new all wheel drive Ford.

          44. DEFENDER88 February 24, 2016

            What State? Sounds like Mich, Minn, Penn, Ohio ? or the whole South.

          45. bobnstuff February 24, 2016

            Western Pa. I live in the house I grow up in. There were a number of new tractors last year plus a lot of old barns being fixed up, Gas money. $3,000 per acre up front money.

          46. DEFENDER88 February 25, 2016

            Well I was close, I guessed OH and Pa.
            West Pa reminds me of Middle Tn, not mountains but good sized hills. Pretty country.
            Or East Tn with bigger hills to mountains(where I grew up).
            All, Heartland America.
            All the times I was shot at was in the Mountains by low class, Ignorant, Red Neck Bas*ards.
            Not near where I grew up though. 1/2 of the attacks were in, Protected?? State Forest areas in Ga and NC. It was a time in my life(the 70’s) when I had become a “pacifist”(ie no guns, etc), kayaking raging rivers and such. Once shot at while in my kayak in a river. Once while camping with about 5others in a field on a mountain top – A night time drive-by, 00 Buck shot hit the guy next to me. Another time I was with 20 women and children and we were “set-upon” by 5 Red Neck drunks(in 3 pickups) all with rifles and shooting them at us in the woods. They thought we were typical un-armed/pacifist kayakers. One of the women had a 5shot pistol and they gave it to me and said “save us”:) This was at night. So I stood in the path to our camp and faced all 5 of them down with a flash light and a borrowed 5 shot pistol. Scared the p*ss out of them when I stepped out and drew a bead on the leaders head and said, firmly, STOP RIGHT THERE or I will shoot your ass 🙂 After that day I went straight to the gun store and said I want enough firepower to blow up 3 pickup trucks:) So – one of the guns I kept with me after that was an 8 shot, 12 ga Ithica pump known by Cops as an “Ally Sweeper”(ie a Cop Gun- at the time-’70’s).
            I don’t go to the mountains much now but still have land up there and take my AR15 when I go.
            So I own one for that reason, plus they make good hunting rifles and for the Collapse/Apocalypse we may find ourselves in. I don’t “want” to have to use it but better “have and not need” than “need and not have”.
            Figure my luck on “need and not have” has just about run out. By all logic and reason I should be dead.
            Some in here say “no one in this country has any reason to own an AR15, so they should be banned” – hmm. I am NOT giving mine up.

          47. bobnstuff February 25, 2016

            Now if you go out into the wild woods you get shot by the growers. I’m not planning for a collapse but I have though about it and figured out I must have been a prepper in another life. I like having a few thousand rounds on hand and I have a bow with hunting arrows. I also have three sources of heat for my house and a generator on my back porch.

            At one time I believe that getting rid of guns like the AK15 was a good idea and then after doing some reading figured out that it was half bake, Most of the guns that do the real killing are hand guns that are bought on the streets or are not properly taken care of. The real problem is mental illness and until people wake up and understand it the problem will not be dealt with.

          48. DEFENDER88 February 25, 2016

            You are exactly correct.
            I came to that conclusion about 2-3yr ago after researching, listening, looking, thinking, etc
            The War on Guns will be about as successful as the War on Drugs – and about as senseless.
            All we need to do to end the drugs problem is Legalize them(Except the Psychotropic Killer Drugs), tax them etc. like the old days.
            Eventually the same will be true for guns(if they are restricted) like many in here want – you would think they(As Progressives) would realize that with the Failed Drug policies we have and “See the Light”. It is counter-intuitive thinking but they should be able to see and understand the logic.

          49. DEFENDER88 February 24, 2016

            Speaking of Delivering Pizza in the city.
            Many years ago:
            Did you know that the guy who developed the Bullet Proof vest was a Pizza delivery guy.
            He carried a gun and when they tried to rob him(with a gun) he pulled his gun and shot all 4-5 of them.
            Think it was in Chicago but not sure.
            I have a Class IV (Ceramic Multi-Hit Rifle) Military Vest in my “Go to War Chest” for when the grid goes down and the gangs go roaming.
            The SWAT guys I help train recommended it. Hope I don’t ever need it either – but have it.

          50. bobnstuff February 24, 2016

            I have been out of the business for 16 years. I was robbed twice when I first started as a driver. Both times there were no guns and had I had a gun I wouldn’t have been able to us it. Both times if my manager had been doing their job it wouldn’t have happened. To be safe delivering pizza you have to think and work smart. You don’t head out unless you know 100% where you are going and you stay in your area. If you are in a bad area you never get out of the car. If your are not sure drive away. When I became a manager I trained my drivers that no pizza was worth putting their life on the line for. I never had a problem with any of my drivers getting robbed even going in to some less the good neighborhoods. Smarts better then guns. My drivers were not aloud to carry. I also made sure they carried little money, they never had more the $20 plus the pizza or the money from the pizza. If your drive flashes money he becomes a target. I either ran or owned fourteen shops all over my area.

          51. stcroixcarp February 23, 2016

            Good for you.

          52. pisces63 February 24, 2016

            Why aren’t YOU a cop?

          53. DEFENDER88 February 24, 2016

            I respect them for a tough job they have.
            And they are needed to keep the bad guys under control.
            But I don’t like conflict or fighting. Chasing a bad guy and wrestling him to the ground is not something I wanted to have to do, or get satisfaction from even if it is a bad guy.
            I prefer and practice Conflict Avoidance techniques.
            But still I carry a gun in case I am trapped and cannot escape.
            But I am very highly trained with it, even more than most cops since I help train them to shoot.
            And don’t like being shot-at with no way to defend myself, which I am all too familiar with.
            Plus, by trade, I am a really good Engineer, and like it.
            But – I do plan to be a bad guys worst nightmare if they try to take me. Hopefully they will realize I am the “Real Deal”(ie Not one to be F*cked with)(even at my age 70) and just leave, But I am not looking forward to that at all.

          54. pisces63 February 24, 2016

            I’m 67 Saturday. Where re you. I’m in Ohio.

          55. DEFENDER88 February 24, 2016


          56. pisces63 February 24, 2016

            My Late husband’s family migrated to Nashville from Vicksburg, Mississippi for the most part. He died at a nephew’s home in Murfreesboro. suddenly 2003 while we were visiting. We would have been married 43 years last December.

          57. pisces63 February 24, 2016

            My people migrated from Louisiana.

          58. pisces63 February 24, 2016

            Don’t you think, considering your sound logic, all people are not meant to have a gun any more than all are not meant to drive or weld a scalpel??

          59. DEFENDER88 February 24, 2016

            Yes, definitely.
            There are many who should not have access to a gun.
            Not just the Gangs, Terrorists, Mental Cases, Criminals etc
            Now below I am talking pistols and not Hunting Rifles, etc:
            I would even go so far to say that if you are not trained in the safe handling, storage and use of a gun you should not have one. It is probably more of a danger to you than your threat. And you should have the right temperament – ie Not “want” to shoot anyone! And not feeling like you are now a “Bad A*s” just because you carry a gun. If you think that way, you should just stay home.
            “I” would advocate that if you plan to carry a gun in public, you must have a permit – training on the law, handling, shooting to a score, etc. – much like our state.
            I am a very strong supporter of Gun Rights but feel that carries with it a responsibility to be “Responsible” which “to me” includes training. So, I teach people(As a volunteer) to shoot(Conceal Carry Classes, and others) but not for money. Even though I am a State and Fed Certified Instructor.
            I also feel carrying a gun carries with it a huge responsibility to be properly trained in its use and safety in public. And having a temperament that you do NOT ever WANT to have to use it.
            And know the Use-of-Force Protocols.
            It is actually a burden for me to carry in public but I do because I refuse to be a victim of life threatening violence like I was at one time and unable to respond or defend myself.
            “I” would like to see a “National Standard” for Permitting, so you could “Carry” in any State or City like you can drive in any State or City.

          60. pisces63 February 24, 2016

            NOOOOOOO!!!! Congress made sure of that!!

          61. Paul Bass February 23, 2016

            Diversion David, the issue is NRA and gun control, NOT autos or what England does.

            But then diversion is all you have, there is do excuse FOR the gun carnage.

          62. David February 23, 2016

            It is not “diversion”, it is pointing out the idiocy of those who wish to disarm the citizens of this country. I thought the subject was the lack of publicity over this crime v. what the publicity would have been had the criminal been a Muslim. “Gun carnage”? Do you honestly think that if there were no guns, that murders would cease?

          63. DEFENDER88 February 23, 2016

            The 33,000 Gun Death Ploy.
            30,000 of those are Suicides
            This is a subtle Deceptive Gun Control Agenda Ploy.
            Hillary often quotes this figure to forward her gun control agenda.
            Since some (30,000 of those are Suicides) and not a gun crime but a basic right to end your own life if you want too.
            A “Real” issue would be Gun “Crime” – which, by the way, is on the decline and has been for several years.

          64. pisces63 February 24, 2016

            Yet you need a valid license to drive, operate, teach, draw blood1!

          65. David February 24, 2016

            Hmmm…do you need a valid license to speak, write a letter to an editor, post a note on the internet? Do you need a valid license to worship your Creator? Why not?

          66. pisces63 February 24, 2016

            I’m so sorry, did you list that with your stats?
            Must have missed it.

          67. David February 24, 2016

            List what with my stats?

          68. DEFENDER88 February 23, 2016

            Here is some “Consideration”:
            The 33,000 Gun Death Ploy.
            30,000 of those are Suicides
            A “Real” issue would be Gun “Crime” – which, by the way, is on the decline and has been for several years.
            ps It is none of your G.D. business if I want to end my life with a gun as long as I don’t hurt anyone else.
            ps Guns “Can” be used for Good – A lot of Nazies were killed with guns.

          69. stcroixcarp February 23, 2016

            I don’t know what counts as gun crime. I do question the source of your information. That being said, suicide hurts more people than the person who took his or her own life. There are parents, children , brothers, sisters, aunts , uncles grandparents, friends teachers, co-workers. And the person who finds the gruesome corpse, and the people left to clean up the mess. Suicides spread concentric circles of grief, guilt, and sorrow that lasts a lifetime. For your own mental health give up your love affair with guns.

          70. DEFENDER88 February 23, 2016

            I don’t have a “Love Affair” with guns.
            I have a desire to survive a bit longer without some thug shooting at me or beating the S*it out of me or killing me for $1 or no reason at all. “You” don’t need a gun – good for you, no problem. A lot of us need more than our bare fists to defend ourselves when the A*s Holes show up. I have been shot at 3 times now and fed up with it and not being able to defend myself(just got lucky). I am now too old to run or fight and I “refuse” to be an unarmed defenseless victim any longer. While I truely “hope” I never have to use it – I am highly trained in its safety and use, and licensed. Its actually a burden. But, I will NOT be giving it up no matter what laws you people pass. Go ahead, ban my gun and turn me into a defacto criminal. ps Hillary does not “need” a gun either – she is surrounded by them, “protecting” her. Since I cant afford that kind of protection – I have to carry my own.

          71. stcroixcarp February 23, 2016

            Don’t shoot your eye out.

          72. DEFENDER88 February 23, 2016

            I am a State and Federal Certified Instructor but don’t teach for money. I do help teach local Sheriff officers including SWAT some on volunteer basis. I also shoot Competitions, Combat Pistol and 3Gun.
            If I shoot my eye out, it is probably my target:)

          73. David February 24, 2016

            Good for you! I shot IPSC for years and now some IDPA.

          74. DEFENDER88 February 24, 2016

            I think I got you looking at IDPA? (I also call it Combat Pistol).
            And instructor certification, how too ?

          75. David February 24, 2016

            Was Master Class in IPSC. In IDPA, I am unclassified.

          76. pisces63 February 24, 2016

            I am amazed at how whites in America live in such fear in their mostly lily white neighborhoods. Really:? That much fear? One of my co-workers had a beautiful home built in an outer ring suburban area. She rushes home so she can get in and lock her doors. I wonder about that. Why, I am black and have lived in either the Hough or Glenville areas of Cleveland all my life. Never been robbed. Never been beaten. Never had anything stolen from me. That includes the rest of my children and sisters and their children. We rarely lock our doors until we go to bed. On really hot nights we sit on our porches and talk to neighbors. In fact for a lot of years we would barbecue in our back yards with various music going from jazz to pop to R&B playing and holding conversations. My mom is now almost 89 and the male neighbor’s sons or families makes sure her lawn is mowed or snow shoveled since my dad died in 2003 after 56 years of marriage. Since mine died, that same year they keep an eye on us. I am 67 this coming Saturday. This is not to excuse the violence out there. We do not have a gun. My youngest sister, also in the Glenville area has a cop for a husband. I do not get your fear in YOUR neighborhood.

          77. DEFENDER88 February 24, 2016

            It is not Black Folks I am afraid of.
            Actually now that I am fully armed and trained, I am not afraid at all. I am relaxed and comfortable in my abilities to defend myself competently if needed. Even against a Gang(Black or White or whatever). Even Jack Boot Govt Thugs(I have the same body armor and weapons they do and can shoot a lot better). That is enough for me. They, a gang, may get me but it will cost them dearly and they are usually a bunch of Chicken S*its when faced with real and competent Force(which I now am).
            Plus I just like shooting sports and shoot competitions.
            I can run my AR15 as well as any soldier, better than most.
            BUT – I don’t WANT to have to use it on Anyone. I do shoot competitions with it.
            Seems you think I am afraid of Black Folks – my attacks have come from A*s Hole Red Necks.
            There are good and bad Blacks, Whites, Hispanics, Asians, ……
            I was attacked and shot at a few times(by Red Necks) and me with no gun and no training – I have now corrected that deficiency/error. And now I am too old to out fist-fight or out run them.
            Also – I think there is a good chance we are headed for a period of great national or regional turmoil and having skill “at arms” will be a valuable if not needed asset to survive.
            Have you considered what it would be like if the Electric Grid goes down for say a month or two?
            It is all run by computer now and the Chinese are trying every day to shut it down. Or a Solar Flair could do it at any time.
            Chaos, roving gangs looking for whatever, neighbors turning on neighbors for food water, etal. when their kids start to starve.
            I will not attack but want to be able to Defend my self and maybe my “hood” with skill

          78. Thomas Martin March 31, 2016

            Where in the hell do you live, Syria?

          79. DEFENDER88 March 31, 2016

            What’s it to you.
            You want to disarm me, have me arrested or want to learn how to defend yourself the right way. Do you even believe in the basic right of self defense. Do you think the Govt/Police can protect you.

          80. Thomas Martin April 1, 2016

            Hey, I have my one gun and can use it. How many should I have? Only one problem, when “they” come, they will be organized and my one gun is useless. That is why we have police and the military. Who wants to disarm you? As long as you follow the laws of the land, I support you. I have more fear of the lunatics who are arming themselves in this country – we only kill off 30,000+ people a year in the US using guns – that is ridiculous. That is worse than the military casualties from fighting a war over a one year period.

          81. DEFENDER88 April 1, 2016

            Well, fundamentally I agree with you.
            But you have some facts wrong.
            1 – 1st That 30,000 figure killed by gun in the US is a bogus figure the Left uses in this gun debate.
            Actually only about 3,000 of those deaths are by gun Crime.
            The other 27,000 are suicides. Which I see as a personal decision we should all have if necessary.
            Unfortunately many of those suicides are xMilitary put on Psyco Drugs for PTSD.
            Unfortunate as this is, I don’t see it as Gun Crime.
            Its more a prescribed psychotropic drug problem than a gun problem.
            2 – I am not LEO but I am a State and Fed(DHS) Certified Firearms Instructor.
            And competition shooter – Combat Pistol, 3 Gun, Combat Rifle.
            3 – I have, in the past, been shot at a few times and me with no gun. Mostly in the mountains. Figure my luck had run out on that so I got guns and got trained(highly).

            Now I help others even some Police Depts learn to shoot(volunteer ie not for money).

            4 – I don’t “want” to have to shoot anyone. Last thing I want to have to do.
            5 – I think we may be headed to a time when we will actually need a gun to survive here.
            6 – In case you have not been listening, Hillary has said she wants to disarm us.
            But I damn sure don’t want to be dis-armed.
            “Will not be” whatever I have to do.
            I am too old to out-run the thugs now.
            And I refuse to be a helpless victim.
            Hope this meets your criteria.

          82. Thomas Martin April 1, 2016

            I agree mostly. The suicide statistic is unacceptable and sad. I am a Democrat and believe that more controls should be placed on certain weapons. I don’t think Hillary wants to disarm as much as place tougher controls on who can buy a weapon and what kinds of weapons can be purchased, etc. Anything we do will not be enough in my opinion and the majority of the public agrees with that. Thanks for your reply, I was concerned that your early responses reflected participation in a hate group or militia for which I have low tolerance for. Have a great day.

          83. DEFENDER88 April 1, 2016

            It was militia types who took shots at me in the past so I am quite familiar with that problem.

            That is definitely not me. I am one of the proverbial “good guys”, who unfortunately Hillary and the Left hates and will hurt if she bans certain types of weapons. Banning weapons will only hurt people like me who follow and support the law.

            At least consider this:

            The basic Dem emotional thinking on this issue is seriously flawed. It is well meaning but in real life it works backwards. For example creating these Gun Free Zones. They have become the choice spots for the crazies to attack since they know they will face no opposition. And they know the Police cannot get there in time to stop them. The best way to stop this is to let, at the least, Gun Permit Holders carry in these places. Then the murder can be stopped short. The Police can not be everywhere and cannot get there in time to stop a massacre. But armed citizens present like me can. It wont be perfect but it will be much better than the Aurora Theater where 100 were present and 90 were shot by 1 guy. And better then San Bernadino where there was no-one to shoot back.

            The same problem/logic applies with Gun Bans like “Assault Rifles”. Ban Assault Rifles and the only people who will have them will be the killers and the gangs.

            These are loosing propositions(In real life, work backwards).
            As they say in the mountains it aint the Arrow its the Indian.
            It aint the gun its the Shooter.

    2. itsfun February 23, 2016

      The Vatican has a 50 foot wall to protect itself.

      1. bobnstuff February 23, 2016

        They were built in the ninth century and back then most cities had walls.

    3. jmprint February 23, 2016

      So who is telling you to give up your arms?

      1. David February 23, 2016

        Hildebeast and Obomo….

        1. Timmi February 23, 2016

          Hmm. Nearly 8 years of Obama and not one gun has been taken from a law abiding citizen.

          1. David February 24, 2016

            Thanks to the US Constitution and the NRA!

          2. pisces63 February 24, 2016

            NO!! It take a constitutional congress to change the or ‘amend’ it. The NRA came out the box lying this president was taking away arms. Every pin headed bigot ate it up. NO president from Washington to Obama can take away ONE firearm. Stop Lying. Fear me!! We the people can get so sick and damned tired of people like you, we can get petitions signed, get a referendum on the ballot and change any damned thing we want with state ratifications. NOTHING you can do IF WE THE PEOPLE decide to prove a point.

          3. David February 24, 2016

            The Bill of Rights are not favors from a benevolent government to its serfs. It is the recitation of rights we have been given by our Creator. Go live in a zoo-like country that changes every 15-20 years. Then, you and your ilk can “prove a point”.

          4. pisces63 February 24, 2016

            No one said it wasn’t. What I wrote is, when people get tired they act. Women were tired of their second class treatment and tried an amendment, ERA, to add to the constitution. It failed, yes but they had a chance to speak their case and try. The same can be done with gun laws. It can be changed by a
            fed up country. Remember well over 60% want some kind of laws and enforcement of those on the records. IF this came about and it is ratified, what would you say, then? The people would have spoken then, too. Then what? Practically every male in my family, I have no brothers and I am 67 on Saturday, served in the military from WWII(as far as I can trace, so far), my dad in the WWII navy , father-in-law, army, uncles, army, Korea, cousins, Army, navy, air force, marines(10+) in Vietnam. My brother-in-law is retired navy and naval reserve. He and my sister were married in 1993 and his unit was called up just before the truce, right after their wedding for Operation Desert Storm. My brother-in-law(husband’s brother) is an army lifer with a purple heart from operation desert Storm, Afghanistan and Iraq.

          5. David February 24, 2016

            Thank your family for their service to our country. I served in the US Air Force and I am a Vietnam veteran. If 60% of the voters decided to disenfranchise black voters and it was ratified, what would you say, then? You need to understand that the rights set out in the Bill of Rights are NOT subject to popular vote. Those rights are “inalienable” to coin a word used by our Fore Fathers.

  8. UncleCoconut February 23, 2016

    Another major story completely ignored by the press when interviewing presidential candidates or during presidential debates was how they would handle the take over by an armed militia of Federal lands that took place in Oregon. Any pundit in their right mind would have taken any opportunity to ask the question. It is so apparent that much of the media is still trying to play “Kingmaker” by ignoring, spinning and slanting the focus of their coverage of events.

  9. jmprint February 23, 2016

    I’m sure the shooter was an angry Trump supporter.

  10. ps0rjl February 23, 2016

    It doesn’t do any good to talk about gun reform when there are to many “John Wayne wannabes” out there. I think the NRA is now only a lobbyist group for the gun manufacturers and the GOP likes to court all these “John Wayne” wannabes. I favor very strict gun control, very extensive background checks, the repeal of open-carry and conceal-carry, large clip magazines, and a ban on assault weapons such as the Bushmaster and all other AR15 type weapons. For years we never had to walk around in the US with the need for a weapon. As a kid I grew up on a farm and we had a 22 and a 12 gauge shotgun. I was drafted during Vietnam like most rural kids were and I carried both an M14 and an M16. In fact my weapon could with the flip of a selector switch fire automatic. I think most of these ‘John Wayne” wannabes probably have never spent a day in the military and carry guns to compensate for their lack of any combat experience. USMC1969-1971

    1. David February 23, 2016

      Well, I spent 4 years in the US Air Force and flew in a Jolly Green in South Vietnam. I am sorry you don’t support a strong interpretation of the 2nd Amendment. An armed society is a polite society.
      Molon Labe

  11. pisces63 February 24, 2016

    If it had been in a black neighborhood, they would have still been ranting about it.


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